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April 2, 2006 at 12:59 pm #12065FajinParticipant
Michael,
When I said we have the choice to do anything you want, I didn’t mean that one choice decides it all. There is always a choice within a choice. Eg. you choose to dig a hole, you can choose to dig further, sideways, stop, etc. then you can stop, or still yet continue to dig further and further. Just like when you make the choice to choose a spiritual path, you have more or less freedom within that path.
But what is the root of the problem that ALLOWS you to make all the decisions? Who you are right now and what decisions you make are based on the negative ego, which is why I said it limits free will.
But, why is your ego negative, why is it the way it is now? Because you made it that way, or more to the point you CHOSE to make it that way. Did you want to make it that way? No. If we had a simple choice of choosing wether we wanted virtuos qualities of love, kindness, calmness, of course we would choose a positive ego, but life is not that simple so we CHOOSE a spiritual path or some kind of formulation to work on the ego.
As for karma, if we speak in a Hindu or Buddhist perspective then we again, made ourselves who we are from our past life. We developed these karmic patterns into our present being. So, the way to regain our original freedom is to work on the ego. But, that is the question, HOW? This is what started the whole debate with Bagua and I, the whole Dao vs. Chan on the ego. Maybe you can clear this issue on soul completion and immortality.
This concludes that negative ego blocks free will, so free will is not really an illusion because we are free from the moment we are born, but the level of will being free is measured my the restriction of the ego.
Regards,
FajinApril 2, 2006 at 2:23 pm #12067baguaParticipantHi Michael:
I was at the beginning of this topic and my initial question was “how do you define free will”?
This topic leads to lots of fantasies. Does free will mean i can shape change and be a tree, mountain, woman, bird, right now in this life? I can be a world leader, rock star, tao master right now in this life, what does this mean?
In my experience, we have the free will to realize our true nature. If we use the Wu Ji to Yin-Yang to Tai Chi to Eight trigrams to myriad things in life, this is a specific energy field/pattern, this is the formula, this is the pathway, maybe we have free will as to how we move through this process, but for this alchemy we must follow this pattern.
Does the Sun and Moon have free will? Can they change their patterns or flow?
It seems to me if you follow the jing-qi-shen-wu ji path, we have not choice as to the path, we have minor choice along the way for this thing or that thing, but we must attune to the path to receive the fruit.
My contention is we have a level of free will, including how we walk the path, but following the alchemcial formula requires following a process, and requires giving up alternatives to get the result. The alchemical method requires following the path, not making a new path, so in a sense our free will to do anything does not exist in the alchemy, OUR FREE WILL is attuned and follows what the path produces.
smiling in the tao,
bagua
April 2, 2006 at 3:22 pm #12069FajinParticipantHello Bagua,
I would like to isolate some things you said.
>>This topic leads to lots of fantasies. Does free will mean i can shape change and be a tree, mountain, woman, bird, right now in this life? I can be a world leader, rock star, tao master right now in this life, what does this mean?<< *This here implies intent. Will is free and will always be free, but that depends on just how free which is measured by the grasp of the negative ego. If you replace free will for the word intent in your question above, the answer is yes. Intent can create this possible reality but only if it is strong enough. >>In my experience, we have the free will to realize our true nature. If we use the Wu Ji to Yin-Yang to Tai Chi to Eight trigrams to myriad things in life, this is a specific energy field/pattern, this is the formula, this is the pathway, maybe we have free will as to how we move through this process, but for this alchemy we must follow this pattern.<< *Bagua, this is where we cross again. My view is that because our bodies are a microcosmic reflection of the macrocosmos, ie. the process you described, we have to do the same thing. Going back to what Michael said about wuji NEEDING to manifest itself into 10,000 things by FIRST POLARIZING ITSELF, I would have to say that this is the intent of wuji, to manifest itself in every way. So, the desire or intent as I call it, precedes free will because it is the INTENT to be free. This intent is what sets forth the process of polarization into two then three then 10,000 in order to obtain freedom. What I am saying is that from wuji came spirit then jing at the very end. The stepping down. 5 shen thory is that in the heart-kidney relationship or shen loves jing and jing loves shen as Michael says, the heart is full of desires and kidney stores the willpower. And in Chinese medicine, the fire of the heart comes down to warm the kidneys and the water of the kidneys comes up to cool the heart creating balance and harmony. So, the desire (heart-fire) to be have free will (kidney water) is this reflection of wuji into myriad things being jing the last part of the process. All spiritual paths say that all desires are bad and must go. The heart must be free of desires. But, it is this one desire to be free that simulates the macrocosmos. This is wu-shen(desire)-qi-jing(free will). So, in conclusion, alchemical work SHOULD focus on this desire of becoming free. This requires intent of working on the jing and shen, why the Daoists put such a huge emphasis on physical body/earth/kidneys/lower dantian because it needs the desire (heart) to make it (free will) stronger. Now, just how that's done, we must work on the negative ego to change this desire so that it will not bind oneself in chains, but free oneself, ie. fire will come down to warm kidneys below instead of rising up. Transformation of the ego structure. P.S. I hope you understand the message I am trying to tell you, Bagua, because I'm a little sloppy in this! Smiles out, Fajin
April 2, 2006 at 8:59 pm #12071singing oceanParticipantFa,
I think your argument is a good one except that in order for the Wu Ji to manifest jing qi and shen, wouldn’t it have to contain Jing in a latent or neutral form to begin with and have that present at all levels?
In other words, the Wu Ji contains Yuan jing, yuan qi and yuan shen, as does early and later heaven, except the yin-yang jing qi and shen is more prevalent in the other levels.
I think you may be putting forward another important question which is “What is Free Will made up of in itself?”, is it the jing frequency? Or is it present and being developed in all the levels of jing qi shen wu and the five phases as we harmonize and crystallize and refine the yuan jing in our consciousness here in later heaven?
April 2, 2006 at 9:13 pm #12073singing oceanParticipantBa,
Essentially what I get from what you are saying is that alchemists become a slave to their path, and the path does not allow any deviation. I think this is a very narrow interpretation.
The purpose of inner alchemy is to refine the yuan jing here in the physical plane (read as; neutral force in a substantial permanent state). But, you are saying, if alchemists deviate from the path, they will not attain the fruit; my answer is that the alchemical process is open to accomodate whatever that unique individual brings with them or encounters in their life, and to harmonize it.
In the beginning, it is important to follow the map back to the source, to dissolve the layers of conditioning that stand in the way of a free communication. After a certain point in time, when the alchemist starts to operate from that central source, the alchemical process becomes free flowing and more spontaneous. To obtain a free flowing state of open communication with the life force in each moment is the purpose of starting the conversation in the first place (the alchemical practice).
I think a deeper question you may be asking is whether the life force actually follows patterns or not, and whether or not it is necessary to initiate and use the will and intention to harmonize anything, rather than just “be”.
Looking at the physical manifestation of nature, and the resonant pathways of the five phases in humans, I would say that the mind of nature does follow certain patterns and pathways.
April 2, 2006 at 11:55 pm #12075baguaParticipantHi Singing O:
Your last two paragraphs narrow in on what im getting at. When you say “does the life force actually follow patterns or not?
The life force cannot escape nature’s patterns, they are not separate things. We in our role as indiviual energy fields can attune to many patterns, some positive, some negative, when this occurs, we are both collective and individual qi fields.
The “will” is required in any spiritual tradition, the Zhi to do whatever practice is done, so it is not fair to say things like Chan have no Zhi.
Just be? Not sure what that is, in my view Chan harmonizes too, harmonizes or attunes.
The biggest barrier i see in our discussions is a lack of expressing the simultaneous nature of life. Tao cosmology is not linear, it is not fragmented. Wu Ji, Yin-Yang, Tai Ji and all myriad things exist at all times. This is what we learn from the later heaven ba gua and luo shu, the opposite numbers sum to 15, but the elements are in conflict, but the number harmony offers a way to seek balance, in our later heaven their is a balance point, which reveals the early heaven, and both exist simultaneously.
Each of us lives in later heaven, but wu ji exists inside us at all times, we can attune to this and become this.
Nature has patterns, read chapters 1 and 2 of Nei Jing, some of them are clearly expressed, our goal is to harmonize or attune to them, this is a major goal.
FOR ME, conscious shaping is Attuning, to attune one must have the will/Zhi to desire and do what is necessary to acheive this Qi Field. But for me the word Attune implies we merge with what already exists, not create something that does not exist.
The Chan experience is within Tao Alchemy, they both seek to to consciously Will/Attune to our Wu Ji nature and live from this space.
Singing and Smiling in the Tao,
bagua
April 3, 2006 at 10:05 am #12077JernejParticipantA
regarding your free flow, you have the choice to polarize it now
(or you will abide in empty space indefinately
and since endurance is but a puff of smoke
there is no other choice)B
regarding your pattern (nature), you have the choice to fullfil its destiny
(every polarity (volt in Bardon) has a goal
you fight it
you create it
you feed it
until its wind gets so strong it
knocks you over
and there you go
you have done it.
since you will do it
you have the choice to do it now
is the only definite choice)SO:
some people keep more free flow
some lessbut having some ‘minor choice’ refers only to A
you have no choice regarding BELEMENT TRAINING IS MAGICAL WAY OF FULLFILING DESTINY
April 3, 2006 at 1:59 pm #12079Michael WinnKeymasterBagua,
I think we are getting closer to understanding each other.I agree with you (and Jernej below) that we have no real choice but to fulfill our destiny and to attune or harmonize ourselves to the Life Force and its pathways. All other choices lead to suffering andf deadends which eventually guide us back to that initial choice.
But you are missing the WILD CARD,
which I will introduce in the next round.That will clarify WHY the element of free will is so critical in the process of fulfilling our destiny and attuning to the Life Force.
After I finish a few days work, gotta issue 40 tickets to china. Once again the details of yin-yang life push aside the vast under lying truths, Necessity is the Greatest God.
empty smile,
Michael
April 3, 2006 at 5:29 pm #12081FajinParticipantApril 3, 2006 at 5:35 pm #12083baguaParticipantHi Faj:
Can you explain Immortality?
thanks,
bagua
April 3, 2006 at 5:36 pm #12085FajinParticipantApril 3, 2006 at 5:38 pm #12087FajinParticipant -
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