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anyone want to talk about the human soul?
primary issues (raise any you want)
1) those who think there is no soul, just chemistry, awareness and the brain which goes dead at death
2) those who think there is a spirit, in this case related to TAO and/or christianity, which deals with the human heart and a force known as divine love
3) any other DNA based etc versions of a soul
so what i am saying here is does anyone NOT think there is a soul
if you do think there is a soul what is itwhat do these formulas REALLY teach the soul is.. and what is really going on with it
??
hi intel:
maybe we can define the soul? can you or anybody define it before we talk about it?
there seems to be many views on the soul or shen in chinese traditions, taoist var greatly on this.
regards,
baguaThe human soul:
An interesting question. There seems to be different answers in different religions and different philosoohies. Everything fits togheter when we try to explain what things is. Even if for instanse the electron. What is a electron? A we will dig into some kind of ontological explanation of the whole uneverse to se what an election is. The same thing should be true about the soul. It will be explained from some kind of system describing the whole universe or its structure somhow.
If I just spekulate without much knowledge in taoism or christionaity.
A thought is though: The glue that keeps all your mental consiuos and uncounsious activities thougether is the soul. Or maybe the glue and its contents. Or maybe the activities, content, that have an atraction on eachother and (are as glue themselves on eachother.) keep all that is you on a psychological plane togheter. Schizofrenia is then when the glue is loosing up. The parts no longer is fit togher or looses its atraction. This is then a problem in the soul.
Of course Michaels discusion on the many shen souls put together is quite close to this.( In his talk about fusion). I also think from a Jungian perspective. Where the parts is collective archetypes with predefined form characters and so on.
Of course we can continue and speak about the pieces the construction elements of the soul. But maybe then it isn’t the soul anymore just some forces that is available in the universe.
Have been thinkning about this question the whole day while at work. Haven’t been able to find a better answer. But this is something maybe.
Haven’t read the Nnonnth answer jet or maybe but not remember it for the moment.
S dragon’s try
To answer.
1. Does it exist in relation to Tao? Answer: yes.
2. You raised what you call ‘primary issues’ which were not in fact issues but opinions of various people. Of those opinions the second is closest to my experience except you have interchanged ‘spirit’ for ‘soul’ and the two are not the same in my opinion. (Nor in Mantak’s for that matter ^_^).
3. “What good is a reality tunnel that is heartless?” Answer: soul is nothing to do with reality tunnel.
The soul in my way of thought is the lower two nonphysical bodies and minds, astral and mental respectively. It keeps you alive and without it you would drop dead. It leaves the body at death. Getting into contact with the energy body gets in contact with the soul. The soul is not normally immortal but apparently may be made so. The spirit is immortal. More info on my blog.
NB: Your last question raises the issue of divine love. We could talk about that too but my answer is to your first question. The question of heartlessness or otherwise indicates a good deal about the condition of the human soul, and the ‘reality tunnel’ is the ego’s impression of life as lived through that soul or body. What good is a person without love? Not much good IMHO. This is not a definition of the soul but a criterion of human development. You would learn a good deal about divine love IMHO from the western point of view, by reading Bardon’s book on kabbalah.
That’s really all I can think of. j
Hello Nnonnth or jason and others
Form your blog:
“If your soul and spirit in you, not bread, is actually what is keeping you alive,”???Bread????
S dragon
I copied the part of your excelent blog that I belive has most to do with the question of the soul. And we see what kind of definition this is.” I think it fits to my definition but also gives it in relation to other part of the universe or all aspects of soul spirit and mentality stuf put in a system. The nice picture of the kabbalah tree wasn’t copied though. ”FROM Nnonth blog
The moon through the branches¡
Oct 11th, 2007 by nnonnthThe Tree of Life diagram is a wonderful thing. If your soul and spirit in you, not bread, is actually what is keeping you alive, and if the tree can be seen as a ¡®map¡¯ of that spirit¡úsoul¡úbody connection, it really is a tree ¡®of Life¡¯ ¨C of how life functions, in our bodies and and in everything. It¡¯s only one of several good maps though. The maps worldwide don¡¯t exactly match up more¡¯s the pity, but they echo each other in several ways. None is complete, complete would be impossible, but all are interesting.
>>>>comment by S dragon>>>> >>>>Also a map of the universe. We see also that the soul can’t excist by itself it must have connection to other forces other more archetypical contexts, maybe to the spirit or God also. The forces, gi shen jing and maybe others, goes betwean different aspects and makes a life from all of this. nourishing different parts is life. Nourishing with exercises is cultivated life. >>>>>
It¡¯s nice for purposes of this post that, looking at the diagram:
¡ we can see all the ¡®minds¡¯ mentioned in other posts. The earth mind is at the bottom (Malkuth), the ¡®true mind¡¯ right in the centre (Tiphareth) and the deep mind is, as one would expect, in between those two (Yesod). So that ladder I was talking about is actually on the tree here, on the ¡®middle pillar¡¯ as it¡¯s called by kabbalists. That middle pillar representing of course neutrality.
Now it¡¯s an interesting question. Buhlman in discovering his ¡®true self¡¯ said, ¡°I absolutely know that the column of light was really me ¨C not just another part of me, but the pure me, the very essence of all I am¡.¡± And it¡¯s funny because we have only gone halfway up the tree to get to true self/Tiphareth and already we¡¯ve found the ¡®very essence¡¯. After the ¡®very essence¡¯, what else could there be left to find?
The answer apparently is plenty, because of course where does this ¡®very essence¡¯ of oneself come from?
>>> S dragon comment>>>>> how is the essence related to the rest of the universe where does it fix it’s energy from. How is it a co creator of everything. (Instead of comes from)>>>>>>
I don¡¯t feel personally qualified to define in any detail what the upper half of the tree represents in reality, but the only other thing on that neutral middle pillar (apart from the three minds already discussed) is at the very top ¨C the sphere known as ¡®Kether¡¯. And what¡¯s said about Kether in kabbalistic circles is that it is the great light, the light of the ¡®logos¡¯, the light that makes the universe ¨C you know, what a certain person who shall (and often does) remain nameless said ¡®let there be¡¯, and there was?
This is a considerably bigger thing than any one person¡¯s ¡®true self¡¯. This is if you like the true self of the the whole universe. Beyond this, there¡¯s only a mystery described in hushed tones in the various traditions – chaos, and/or god him- or herself or whatever it is this week. The point is, that light is the prime truth of everything, continually streaming out to nourish and create all things, a far greater thing than your individual true self.
>>>> S Dragon comment: Brahman and Athman>>>>>
>>>>>comment swedich dragon: Maybe we might get lost if we think about every circle in the diagram as separeted from eachother maybe we could see the tree more holographically>>>>>>
Looking closely at Buhlman¡¯s experience, you notice that he wasn¡¯t beyond all forms. His experience was of finding a great column of light ¨C and a column of light is a form.
>>>>>question by S dragon: is a form beacase its a column???? or some other reason?>>>>
Not the kind of form you find every day, I admit, but it¡¯s a definite shape. He started off outside it, and then made the decision to merge into it. That means there was some kind of space the form was inhabiting. And he found his true self ¨C but there must have been alot more around in the universe than what he saw at that point, for a start: everyone and everything else¡¯s true self. This could hardly be the whole deal, this one experience of true self. It¡¯s the start of something bigger.
What I believe is, the bottom half of the tree in action is finding your true self; in the top half of the tree one is going from that true self experience to a point where your identity includes all experience whatever ¨C all times, all places, all beings, knowing them all from the inside out, being a part of the light that sustains them all. The true self of everything. I really shouldn¡¯t talk about it becaue I haven¡¯t experienced it in any really tangible way ¨C but this is certainly what I think the top half of the tree is indicating. You¡¯re going right back to the source, of your true self, and of everything else, and recognizing it as all part of you.”
End of the part I copied from Nnonnth log
>>>> Comment S dragon: like beeing enlightened in the deepest sence then.
So this seams to be an excelent description of the souls and therire relations to ewerythin realy. I think every explanation of what something is must make a picture of what everything is and then from this explanation define for instance the soul or anything else. This is of course part of the dilemma; what you say is tao is not tao. you have to asociate it whit something else that it isn’t. The intelect have to leave through the back door and leave some room for practise and intuition. The intelect just gives us maps to make us belive we know what we are doing, but everything is still a great mystery 🙂 🙂 :)>>>>>>
Of course following Eric Steven Yudeloves exercieses I have red hie book “the tao and the tree of life, but without going into the kabbalah stuf to much.” I once had a dream about such systems. It told me it is enough to know one system and go into it and not be to intelectual in many systems, thats not progress. At least for me in that moment. (reading to much maybe by then without earth contact)
But now I will look through the book a litle bit and see if I can find something interesting.
Some body know anything about Yudelove nowdays. He had a site on internet Taommagick something but it disapered and no more books for years. What does he do now?
Swedich Dragon coments copied text from Nnonnth’s blog about kabbalah
>>”If your soul and spirit in you, not bread, is actually what is keeping you alive,”
???Bread????<>Maybe we might get lost if we think about every circle in the diagram as separeted from eachother maybe we could see the tree more holographically<>is a form beacase its a column????<>This is of course part of the dilemma; what you say is tao is not tao<>I have red hie book “the tao and the tree of life, but without going into the kabbalah stuf to much.”<>Some body know anything about Yudelove nowdays.<<
Last I heard he was threatening strippers with swords in New York.
Real interesting question I asked before but not answered yet: where do early heaven, original nature and these taoist things go on the tree of life? Maybe Yudelove knows. It's very easy to know the basic nature of the soul by practicing these practices or any others, but still fun to talk to about structure, especially if the structure goes with practice experience. j
Hello Nnonnth or jason and others
Form your blog:
“If your soul and spirit in you, not bread, is actually what is keeping you alive,”???Bread????
S dragon
I copied the part of your excelent blog that I belive has most to do with the question of the soul. And we see what kind of definition this is.” I think it fits to my definition but also gives it in relation to other part of the universe or all aspects of soul spirit and mentality stuf put in a system. The nice picture of the kabbalah tree wasn’t copied though. ”FROM Nnonth blog
The moon through the branches¡
Oct 11th, 2007 by nnonnthThe Tree of Life diagram is a wonderful thing. If your soul and spirit in you, not bread, is actually what is keeping you alive, and if the tree can be seen as a ¡®map¡¯ of that spirit¡úsoul¡úbody connection, it really is a tree ¡®of Life¡¯ ¨C of how life functions, in our bodies and and in everything. It¡¯s only one of several good maps though. The maps worldwide don¡¯t exactly match up more¡¯s the pity, but they echo each other in several ways. None is complete, complete would be impossible, but all are interesting.
>>>>comment by S dragon>>>> >>>>Also a map of the universe. We see also that the soul can’t excist by itself it must have connection to other forces other more archetypical contexts, maybe to the spirit or God also. The forces, gi shen jing and maybe others, goes betwean different aspects and makes a life from all of this. nourishing different parts is life. Nourishing with exercises is cultivated life. >>>>>
It¡¯s nice for purposes of this post that, looking at the diagram:
¡ we can see all the ¡®minds¡¯ mentioned in other posts. The earth mind is at the bottom (Malkuth), the ¡®true mind¡¯ right in the centre (Tiphareth) and the deep mind is, as one would expect, in between those two (Yesod). So that ladder I was talking about is actually on the tree here, on the ¡®middle pillar¡¯ as it¡¯s called by kabbalists. That middle pillar representing of course neutrality.
Now it¡¯s an interesting question. Buhlman in discovering his ¡®true self¡¯ said, ¡°I absolutely know that the column of light was really me ¨C not just another part of me, but the pure me, the very essence of all I am¡.¡± And it¡¯s funny because we have only gone halfway up the tree to get to true self/Tiphareth and already we¡¯ve found the ¡®very essence¡¯. After the ¡®very essence¡¯, what else could there be left to find?
The answer apparently is plenty, because of course where does this ¡®very essence¡¯ of oneself come from?
>>> S dragon comment>>>>> how is the essence related to the rest of the universe where does it fix it’s energy from. How is it a co creator of everything. (Instead of comes from)>>>>>>
I don¡¯t feel personally qualified to define in any detail what the upper half of the tree represents in reality, but the only other thing on that neutral middle pillar (apart from the three minds already discussed) is at the very top ¨C the sphere known as ¡®Kether¡¯. And what¡¯s said about Kether in kabbalistic circles is that it is the great light, the light of the ¡®logos¡¯, the light that makes the universe ¨C you know, what a certain person who shall (and often does) remain nameless said ¡®let there be¡¯, and there was?
This is a considerably bigger thing than any one person¡¯s ¡®true self¡¯. This is if you like the true self of the the whole universe. Beyond this, there¡¯s only a mystery described in hushed tones in the various traditions – chaos, and/or god him- or herself or whatever it is this week. The point is, that light is the prime truth of everything, continually streaming out to nourish and create all things, a far greater thing than your individual true self.
>>>> S Dragon comment: Brahman and Athman>>>>>
>>>>>comment swedich dragon: Maybe we might get lost if we think about every circle in the diagram as separeted from eachother maybe we could see the tree more holographically>>>>>>
Looking closely at Buhlman¡¯s experience, you notice that he wasn¡¯t beyond all forms. His experience was of finding a great column of light ¨C and a column of light is a form.
>>>>>question by S dragon: is a form beacase its a column???? or some other reason?>>>>
Not the kind of form you find every day, I admit, but it¡¯s a definite shape. He started off outside it, and then made the decision to merge into it. That means there was some kind of space the form was inhabiting. And he found his true self ¨C but there must have been alot more around in the universe than what he saw at that point, for a start: everyone and everything else¡¯s true self. This could hardly be the whole deal, this one experience of true self. It¡¯s the start of something bigger.
What I believe is, the bottom half of the tree in action is finding your true self; in the top half of the tree one is going from that true self experience to a point where your identity includes all experience whatever ¨C all times, all places, all beings, knowing them all from the inside out, being a part of the light that sustains them all. The true self of everything. I really shouldn¡¯t talk about it becaue I haven¡¯t experienced it in any really tangible way ¨C but this is certainly what I think the top half of the tree is indicating. You¡¯re going right back to the source, of your true self, and of everything else, and recognizing it as all part of you.”
End of the part I copied from Nnonnth log
>>>> Comment S dragon: like beeing enlightened in the deepest sence then.
So this seams to be an excelent description of the souls and therire relations to ewerythin realy. I think every explanation of what something is must make a picture of what everything is and then from this explanation define for instance the soul or anything else. This is of course part of the dilemma; what you say is tao is not tao. you have to asociate it whit something else that it isn’t. The intelect have to leave through the back door and leave some room for practise and intuition. The intelect just gives us maps to make us belive we know what we are doing, but everything is still a great mystery 🙂 🙂 :)>>>>>>
Of course following Eric Steven Yudeloves exercieses I have red hie book “the tao and the tree of life, but without going into the kabbalah stuf to much.” I once had a dream about such systems. It told me it is enough to know one system and go into it and not be to intelectual in many systems, thats not progress. At least for me in that moment. (reading to much maybe by then without earth contact)
But now I will look through the book a litle bit and see if I can find something interesting.
Some body know anything about Yudelove nowdays. He had a site on internet Taommagick something but it disapered and no more books for years. What does he do now?
Swedich Dragon coments copied text from Nnonnth’s blog about kabbalah
>>is a form beacase its a column????<>I have red hie book “the tao and the tree of life, but without going into the kabbalah stuf to much.”<>Some body know anything about Yudelove nowdays.<<
Last I heard he was threatening strippers with swords in New York.
QQQQQ sounds a bit dangerous. Like madness or something you never know with such stories do you?QQQQQQ
Real interesting question I asked before but not answered yet: where do early heaven, original nature and these taoist things go on the tree of life? Maybe Yudelove knows. It's very easy to know the basic nature of the soul by practicing these practices or any others, but still fun to talk to about structure, especially if the structure goes with practice experience. j
QQQQ Yes good questions! A challenge to someone knowing more of this systmes indeed. Mysels still has much basic taoism to grasp before any capabilities for these kind of questionsQQQQ
Maybe you already have red the book "tao and the tree of life":
p25
"The three elemental forces…"The tao produceed the one;
The One produced the Two
The Two produced the Three;
The Three produced all the myrriad beeings" from tao the chingThe One is the Tai Chi (Kether). The Two are the yang (Chokmah) and yin (Binah), father and mother, positive and negative are the equvalent of Chokmanh and Binah. The three are the Three pure Ones, the tree elemental forces.
The three elemental forces became the Heavenly, or Universal energy…"
this is ofcorse the basics from his book. Then maybe its possible to follow the continuing taoist explanation and translate it. Or maybe more complex.
Just a try form S Dragon
… but personally I feel if you end up threatening strippers with swords, perhaps your theory is not perfect? 🙂 Mind you that was a while ago… almost 2 years. I hope he’s doing better now. Michael said that he got into ‘black magic’. So not good really! I linked below to the post that Spyrelx posted, with the news item in it.
That’s why I didn’t really want to read his book myself!
>>Why a column anyway: of light<<
As I said in the blog post, it is his central channel.
j
Hello all
Bad news ablut Yudelove! If the story is correct and true I also hope he does better today! That explains why such a greate person suddenly disapears from the public world.
As a reader of all three of his books (and practioner)I would like to say that they are greate. In my opinion you should really read “The tao and the tree of life” and judge yourself if you like it or not. It’s an excelent description of the taoist yoga (universal tao) and also wery good description about the different kabbalah systems. There is absolutely nothing strange about it as far as I can see.
Conserning the two books “100 days to better health, good sex and a long life” I belive the exercises are fairly the same as the basics in Mantak Chias, but with some small differences. Also the “Taoist Yoga and sexual energy” is according to my teachers about the same as Mantak Chias teaching.
Of course it would be nice to know more about what have happened to him. Somewere somthing did go wrong obviously and it would be of general interest to know what happened to him for all the people on this site to. I think he was considered the most advanced of Mantak Chias students and the only one Mantak Chia has recognised as a Master in his own right, as far as I know. Of corse its a major draw back for the whole system if people don’t know or have an idea about what did happen to him. But maybe you know much better than me. The chinese have always also recognised that this sexual practises might be dangerous.
To be a litle drastical: As far as I can see to not read Yudelove beacouse whats seems to have happened to him is equvalent to not read Mantak Chia beacase what happened to his student, beacase their teaching is almoust similar.
I should really apreciate if someone does know more about this issue. It of greate importance for all of us. And of greate personal interest for me folowing his system together with some friend of mine.
>>Of course it would be nice to know more about what have happened to him. Somewere somthing did go wrong obviously and it would be of general interest to know what happened to him for all the people on this site to.<>To be a litle drastical: As far as I can see to not read Yudelove beacouse whats seems to have happened to him is equvalent to not read Mantak Chia beacase what happened to his student, beacase their teaching is almoust similar.<<
Well *at the time* I'm afraid to say it did put me off somewhat… 🙂 🙂 🙂 Right now I have no real desire to read it but no burning desire to run screaming away from it either. j
Hello Jason (easier to spell)
Thx for the conversation. I made the title of the one above a bit controversial so the others will probably read it. Then maybe some know something more. 🙂
This easue is of big interest of me also even though this not have happened to Yudelove. It is good to know about all possible drawbacks in working with energies.
More in general knowing about tao and magick for instanse. (Forgetting about Yudelove for a moment beacase we obviously, not now so much of him. ). Perhaps we were in this discusion years ago. Anyway: Working with such a power as in magick and tao for instance. Are there realy such a sharp distinctions betwean black and white magick? Whats the benefits going into black magick? How can a person much evolved in a white spiritual diciplin happens to change to black magick?
Something tells me you wrote something earlier about that the power isn’t about good or bad. It’s the people making it. Or something like this.
I happened to have a discussion with one of the girl in my yoga circle. The one I call sister of imortal quriosity. We were talking about that qigong had been only for the upper classes in China beacase for instance it was nearly impossible to repress the lower classes if they new qigong and tao yoga. She asked the question if the upper class was so high developed didn’t they realise they did something wrong about the rest of the people. I have also asked myself the same quesiton. Isn’t wven close to a perfect answer on this. The question asked without specifyint the exact historical time, its more of a general nature. Perhaps the answer is more about power in general as you also told me before.
I’m sorry if we already have had about the same discussion. Its obviously so that I’m thinking wrong somewhere beacase it doesn’t fit together so well my thoughts.
Swedich Dragon earlier
>>To be a litle drastical: As far as I can see to not read Yudelove beacouse whats seems to have happened to him is equvalent to not read Mantak Chia beacase what happened to his student, beacase their teaching is almoust similar.<<J last one:
******Well *at the time* I'm afraid to say it did put me off somewhat… 🙂 🙂 🙂 Right now I have no real desire to read it but no burning desire to run screaming away from it either. j*********Swedich dragon this letter
Like to have been able to put you off a litle bit. Actually what you have written in your blog and what Yudelove writes in his book "the tree…" is somehow connected. It should be interesting to see if you have made any diferent conclusions about the comparison tao and kabbalah for instanse. Perhaps you read it some day. Perhaps you're closer to Yudelove than you imagine. (To put you off little bit more :)… )By the way sorry I haven't red ewerything in detail in your blog about the conical shape for instance.
Maybe the honey mone sone is ower. 🙂 🙂 🙂
More close to an end of it maybeHello Intel:
In my view the Tao Teh Ching in its simple way presents who we are quite clearly. It clearly states we do not need to go anywhere or add anything to realize the Tao inside use, everything is with us now, no need to create anything.
Tao Teh Ching advises us eliminate the stuff we have added to our essential nature, which has taken our focus and attention (Yi) from our true self. There is a presence or awareness that has always existed and still exists, it has always been with us, this is our true nature. The great illusion is we are separate from it, it is only the intellect that can create this dynamaic, life itself is this awareness, in a sense its the only thing you can not get away from.
IMHO Qi Gong, Nei Gong, Tao Alchemy is to help us refocus on this aspect of ourselves, if it assists in the process it is an effective practice, if not its not and give it up.
The poetic expressions of the hun, po, five shen, etc. are the fingers pointing to the moon, lets not miss our essential nature and only see the fingers.
In my view Tao Teh Ching does not promote the type of Alchemy found in the WHite Cloud methods, many taoist traditions have a more gently, relaxed approach about how to obtain self awareness, knowing your true nature. Alchemical methods are just one approach, look at the practitioners and see if they say the formulas do what the books say? The formulas can become a major barrier in the sense they separate you from being aware of your awareness, seeking to create something new and not being with with what you already have.
regards,
bagua
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