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Dog wrote:
“If you have a strong foundation(your animal nature or matrix is harmonized) and you are grounded then your chances of success are higher but it is still a gamble.”
My comment might be a bit off the main thread and in a way peripheral to Dog’s overt meaning, but I wanted to respond to the quote. Just today I felt called to add some iron shirt work to my Kan and Li routine – specifically Standing tree. I feel a need for a much deeper root; I want a deep anchor. I did the Fusion 2/3 work before Lesser, but no other Iron Shirt work.
I am finding that one of the aspects of Lesser work is a new synthesis of what has preceded it. Also that things that I thought I knew are less familiar than they were. For example: while I probably would have jumped into a conversation about ‘the soul’ before, I find that I cannot. Right now, that term has no first hand meaning.
-ml
Bagua wrote:
“The formulas can become a major barrier in the sense they separate you from being aware of your awareness…”
For those who resonate with the formulas, the formulas can be helpful to tune an aspect of awareness into itself. Sure they can be a crutch, and it’s important to be aware that there might be an artificiality to them, but in a sense experience is also a crutch of the same type. We need feedback. The formulas_can_be a good way to acquire that feedback and to learn to listen to it.
-ml
never said no experience just a question of separating wheat from chaff in truth versus idea..
someone from Emerald Cloister wrote this:
“The Soul Identity represents the 6-dimensional state of cognitive
expansion one experiences with full activation of DNA strands 1-6,
can access the Race/Species Memory Record and is capable of entering
Hallah Phase Merkaba Vehicle.Souls are created by the Oversoul in sets of 12, forming Soul
Matrices.The Soul Matrix projects portions of itself into Harmonic Universe-1
(HU-1) to create set of 12 manifest, gross matter physical
incarnations, forming Incarnational Matrices.Usually a soul (Soul Matrix), HU-2 identity, manifest into 12
simultaneous incarnations, two in each of the six time cycles in one
Harmonic Universe (HU). In each pair of incarnates, one is male, the
other female; this relationship is referred to as “twin flames”, but
does not necessarily imply a romantic “soul mate” involvement.Your Soul is a plural with 12 faces and is part of a larger identity
called the Oversoul that is composed of 12 souls each with their 12
incarnate identities, so you are dealing with 144 incarnates in your
immediate Oversoul family.”hmm… sounds like a circuit 7 thing
i think the real beauty of the kan and li formulas over all these different takes on the soul is that it is based on an energy field in the heart..
so my real question here is what are the dynamics of the soul.. Michael Winn says that these different fields rearrange from different people through different lifetimes and that what fuses stays organized throughout some sort of life death energy cycle..
BUT at the same time there is this Immortal Self which is supposed to already be inside of us..
so my question is really, and this may be my fault, but is this immortal self supposed to be there from the beginning, just gathering what it can, or is it something you have to create in order for it to exist to begin with..
if it does exist from the beginning, then what is supposed to be happening with it at death, in the afterlife etc
??
Fine example of what I was getting at. You never no what might come up. I find the Alchemical path to be a humbeling one. There is always a new adventure around the corner.
bagua wrote:
“Why do you assume Yudlove is a highly evolved person? Because one writes a book does not mean they have accomplished the things in it, his tao practices is from Healing Tao, from M. Chia and all those that conributed to its writing and presentation.And I would be careful of people’s opinion of others, you direct experience is what matters most.”
Yes I know I just assuming. 🙂 I could say more for shore if I have met him. Bur even then it might be difficult. It´s absolutely not a judgement based on a person writing a book that I like! More then from what Mantak Chia has written about the aouthor in the books. If Mantak Chia says he is a master in Mantak Chias own system I guess I can´t have a better ground for knowing that he knows the diciplin quite well. I have only knowledge of the basics and a litle more myself so I have to trust the people that is on a higher level. I still see Yudelove as a highly evolved person! I have heard judgements about Mantak Chia also saying he is not so highly evolved in the exercises as some ohters. If that is true or not I can´t realy know. From my position Michael, Chia and Yudelove for instance is highly developed people in this system and highly evolved persons. Of coarse hearing such stories as the one with yudolove are reasons to reevalue what you know about that person and the system.
I haven´t realy made any big conclusions from this. The reason why I find this still interesting is the questions it rises, especially questions about the dangers in the system.
I do not buy this kind of conclusion though: Yudolove was not so greate he was not highly developed so we do not need to look at some dangers in this system from what happened to him. (Or seems to have hapened from a short story in the newspaper and some peoples judgement aboout it. )
I do like what Dog was writing:
“I find the Alchemical path is about healing. Creating Harmony. If you forget this, then that is reflected back to you. No matter how far you go the fecal matter will still hit the fan, just at a different level. If you have a strong foundation(your animal nature or matrix is harmonized) and you are grounded then your chances of success are higher but it is still a gamble.”
Maybe you can say the higher you climb the deeper you fall.
With regards S Dragon
Hi S. Dragon:
In my experience there is a difference between knowing the practices and system and actually living what the formulas say they accomplish. With maturity we learn to follow the wise advice of the state of Missouri, “The Show Me State”.
To be honest it does not matter what “level” others are on, there are no levels in spiritual realization, my yuan shen is your yaun shen, they are from the same awareness (for lack of a better word). There can be levels in skill practices, like tai chi, or Chi Nei Tsang or Iron Shirt, these should not be mixed up with Spiritual Realization. Tao Teh Ching is quite clear about distinctions.
Qi,
Ok I follow. Skill is one thing to live the life something else then. Its perhaps a matter of shoosing the right path always not a matter of skill.
I wonder what you are thinking about the question I was giving to Jason earlier about the upperl and lower classes in China:
“I happened to have a discussion with one of the girl in my yoga circle. The one I call sister of imortal quriosity. We were talking about that qigong had been only for the upper classes in China beacase for instance it was nearly impossible to repress the lower classes if they new qigong and tao yoga. She asked the question if the upper class was so high developed didn’t they realise they did something wrong about the rest of the people. I have also asked myself the same quesiton. Isn’t wven close to a perfect answer on this. The question asked without specifyint the exact historical time, its more of a general nature. Perhaps the answer is more about power in general as you also told me before. ”
… didn’t you bring that up as an ‘explanation’ of what happened to Yudelove, I thought so?
And if so, well…. 🙂 🙂 :)… I mean *all* spiritual paths are humbling… how can whatever this ‘humbling’ involves possibly lead to threatening strippers with swords, if it is proceeding at all correctly? Sure things change, you may do better or less well… but that kind of behaviour is ‘back to square one’… it’s not a natural result of alchemy is it? Nor of magic? Something else must be involved j
>>Maybe you can say the higher you climb the deeper you fall.<<
See, that right there is the part I don't follow.
When things go well, you don't want them to stop! You establish a new self and why would you want to go back? Why would you allow things to slip? Your whole life has changed for the better… beyond belief! *If* it's genuine evolution. It's just not possible to 'fall back' to this extent – have a bad day and not accomplish as much sure. But emotional terrorism with a katana? 🙂 🙂 With genuine evolution that is just not going to happen. With a truly correct foundation there is no chance to fall back, not only 'you' but all your incarnations and your entire situation has changed completely, and you surely have learned some patience… this is the foundation.
If you don't have this it's not real evolution. You have leaped ahead to try and grasp something not really yours yet. That's the unskilful part, and that I *do* understand and have seen it happen to others. But never to someone of genuine achievement… I feel personally it is impossible. They might gripe a bit about the state of the world or have an off-day or something, but they would never go back to thinking their ego desires are any kind of solution to pain they felt. This is just my experience! j
The founder of this site maintains: “I love *all* spiritual paths, they all work, I rejoice when *anyone* takes *any* of the 10,000 methods to high levels.” [I paraphrase].
Who could possibly disagree with that? 🙂 🙂 Even now, when the world is crying out for unity, are there still people who want overall splits between doctrines?
If Bagua’s experience is that something else works better, it just means that he is able to go further then, and we can all celebrate that. Each person must find the way for him- or her-self.
The ‘Whirling Rainbow Prophecy’ shared by several native american peoples, such as the Hopi, states: “When all pathways to wholeness are respected by all cultures, the prophecy of the Whirling Rainbow will be completed. – this is expected to be happening sort of nowish. Speaking rather generally… still, nice to bear in mind!
j
I am not saying one way works better, what I am suggesting is not to get caught up in a rigid view that formulas are better than other methods or they guarantee anything. Many people rush throught these retreats/workshops so fast its impossible for them to gain an experience. If you read enough literature on Tao you see these formulas refer to something, it is this something we need to focus on, not so much the step by step method and explanation, which has changed over the past 20years, never mind the past centuries.
bagua
… rigidity is certainly unhelpful. You know myself I practice stillness meditation and have done for a long time; in my case it has certainly been the key to many other things. Nonetheless, if people don’t ask me for an opinion on ‘what Jason thinks should be practiced’ then normally I don’t provide one. These things are so very personal in the end!
As for rushing, it’s the number one sin for me, something I will always regret in the years I was doing it. The big mistake Glenn Morris made was encouraging speed. ‘The quick way’ for most people ends up being far slower.
You know at the time when Trunk made his ‘big announcement’ as to the ’emperor’ Mantak having no clothes, it was often said that in a way *all* spiritual teachers are interested in raking in the dough. I can only say for myself that everything changed for me when I stopped looking at it in a commercialized way. We buy things to get answers, get what we want, but spiritual training has for me not turned out to be like that.
When I began to practice magic for example, I quickly left behind the wiccan consumerism (which isn’t all bad but mostly empty) for things that seemed truer to me. Now whether it’s a coincidence or not I don’t know, but in the end those truer things never seemed to make the big bucks. You know Franz Bardon for example was not rich at all and was persecuted all the time by the (rather unpleasant admittedly) governments who disliked his power. The people who distribute his books now still make very little money and the original translator, Ruggeberg, occasionally wonders in public why more people don’t donate money to his organization. (He seems to be too polite to ask them to do so normally). Of course they cannot come out with new products all the time – the author has passed on!
Draja Mickaharic served the ethnic communities for decades in New York, and these days I believe his social security cheque still makes up more of his bank balance than his writing proceeds. He never charged for his services any big fixed rate you see, he always allowed people to pay only what they thought his service was worth, and sometimes nothing.
The fact is that in the kinds of magic which have turned out to interest me the most, the majority of people are not able to train in them easily quickly, right now, right away. It really is training, of the kind where if you start, the first thing you are told is: for two years nothing much is going to happen! It’s just not what people want to hear. They want Hogwart’s! Listen to me, I sound like a jaded cynic – but this really is true I feel.
This links into something else as well, which you touch on when you talk about the way people rush into things. Many people are in crisis now, caused by bad lives in a very challenging and hard-to-digest cultural situation. When they come to a spiritual practice it’s often a case of: “Save me!” But to begin spiritual training as *I* see it in a state of crisis is very difficult. One of my teachers used to say, if someone asks me for training and their life is dishevelled, I don’t train them. But he was old school…
This is my experience; other people will definitely have experienced differently though. I believe many people take up practices like Michael’s in a much better spirit than one might think, and they do benefit hugely from it. I also believe anyone doing anything deserves my respect, simply because they are becoming more of an ornament to the world even following their hearts and making the attempt. They will need to time see through to the ‘something underneath’ – so give them that time!
I truly believe that even what appears less than perfect at the beginning will lead people in good directions ultimately, so long as the foundation principles are not a million miles off, and crucially, (as you say), so long as people are allowed to think freely and test rather than being told to ‘just follow’. After that point, it is up to all of us as practitioners to test and make sense of these methods, sharing information with each other honestly, so that each person’s truth can be allowed to blossom as much as humanly possible.
Blessings, j
I hope people do not judge them selves to harshly. I will just remind people that we are all healing, we all have our lessons.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
It is my experience that sharing the truth in a gently and compassionate way is the most effective way to assist others. IMHO it is clear in taoist teachings we have everything we need now, we are complete now, there is no need to go anywhere to get what you need, you dont need to wait until the future, its all here now. So the question is what are effective ways to know this. So the taoist community has many practices and methods to assist in this, and for some people basic meditation will do it, others all nine formulas may or may not do it.
The point I am trying to make is if you start from knowing you are part of an eternal world, you are immortal and all people are, then you approach this cultivation in a different way. Instead of beleiving your souls will split at death and scatter into the cosmos to be recycled and you have lost the chance to collect these souls into a unifyied immortal body, and maybe become a Jeti Knight.
Smiling in the Tao,
bagua
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