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Thanks for the raccomandations. I added them to my Reading List. I am actually taking up sugegstions, if anybody has any.
Speaking of good translation I can’t praise enough the Victor Mair translation of the Chuang Tzu.
> My humble opinion.
‘humble’?
🙂
Heya .f –
>>thanks for your posts – I’m enjoying reading them very much, you seem to have a similar agnostic outlook on things as me.<< Don't mention it, enjoying yours also and everyone's actually. This is a great board. On the "merit" thing... Michael is right, somehow this idea of being born to make up for past mistakes must have slipped Max's mind to mention. I must say, that particular idea seems so egregiously mistaken to me, I cannot see how anyone could swallow it for a second! If this makes me "agnostic", then I guess I am. Anyhow I certainly never have belonged to any religion and never will, although I am certain that reincarnation does in some sense occur. Well, whatever... we must wait for the Buddhist to explain this idea I suppose. Best NN
Michael,
<>
What a ghastly view. I don’t think all card carrying buddhists hold to this. Others teach that we are born through ignorance and the non-recognition of the clear light nature of mind. To paraphrase Mike Dickman’s translation of a dzogchen text this mind is the ‘primordial and unborn source of awareness, empty in essence, radiant by nature, whose energy is all pervading’. With recognition there is liberation for even the greatest of sinners.
I see merit in more terms of the Catholic idea of sin as state of separation. Certain actions and ways of being will automatically put one in particular states of relationship. The merit is just the effects on one’s state of being and its consequent positive effect on the quality of those relationships. Of course doing the right thing for the wrong reason isn’t merit per se but on a more mundane level it does form a veneer of civilised behaviour as the basis of social etiquette.
Rex
Michael,
<>
What a ghastly view. I don’t think all card carrying buddhists hold to this. Others teach that we are born through ignorance and the non-recognition of the clear light nature of mind. To paraphrase Mike Dickman’s translation of a dzogchen text this mind is the ‘primordial and unborn source of awareness, empty in essence, radiant by nature, whose energy is all pervading’. With recognition there is liberation for even the greatest of sinners.
I see merit in more terms of the Catholic idea of sin as state of separation. Certain actions and ways of being will automatically put one in particular states of relationship. The merit is just the effects on one’s state of being and its consequent positive effect on the quality of those relationships. Of course doing the right thing for the wrong reason isn’t merit per se but on a more mundane level it does form a veneer of civilised behaviour as the basis of social etiquette.
Rex
Heya Rex –
>>I don’t think all card carrying buddhists hold to this. Others teach that we are born through ignorance.<< I can't understand what's going on! This is just as ludicrous as believing we are born from past sins! Whatever next? NN
Hi NN,
“I can’t understand what’s going on! This is just as ludicrous as believing we are born from past sins! Whatever next?”
Everything is the magical display of original awareness? LOL!
How to define original awareness to everyones satisfaction is anyones guess!In the absence of direct experience all metaphysical assumptions are unprovable matters of faith. As buddhists say the perceptions of beings are as limitless as the number of beings in existence. But is there something that supports impartially the limitless perception of beings without directly advertising itself? Taoists call it the Tao which is hidden yet always present:
The Tao is like a well:
used but never used up.
It is like the eternal void:
filled with infinite possibilities.It is hidden but always present.
I don’t know who gave birth to it.
It is older than God.The Tao is called the Great Mother:
empty yet inexhaustible,
it gives birth to infinite worlds.It is always present within you.
You can use it any way you want.The Tao is infinite, eternal.
Why is it eternal?
It was never born;
thus it can never die.
Why is it infinite?
It has no desires for itself;
thus it is present for all beings.(taken from http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html)
Personally as a deluded and confused guy I dont see any difference in this view of the Tao and the dzogchen view of primordial and unborn awareness, empty in essence, radiant by nature, whose energy is all pervading’. Buddhists say that desire is the one of the main drivers for human rebirth. Taoists also make a link between desire and manifestation:
Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.(taken from http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html)
No one has to subscribe to notions of karma, merit, interdependence, buddha nature and rebirth. In the light of the Kalama Sutra these concepts and working models shouldnt be taken as incontrovertable truths either:
“Do not believe in anything
simply because you have heard it.Do not believe in traditions
simply because they have been handed
down for many generations.Do not believe in anything
simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.Do not believe in anything
simply because it is found written in your
religious books.Do not believe in anything
merely on the authority of
your teachers and elders.But when, after observation and analysis,
you find anything that agrees with reason,
and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and allCan anyone articulate with certainty any alternatives to karma, merit, and rebirth? Buddhists can’t prove the validity of these concepts but conversly non-Buddhists can’t disprove them either.
All the best,
RexHeya Rex –
>>In the absence of direct experience all metaphysical assumptions are unprovable matters of faith<< Of course they are! I thought the whole point here was that this board is precisely about *obtaining* that direct experience. I can't think of anything else to say, so I will shut up. best NN
“I thought the whole point here was that this board is precisely about *obtaining* that direct experience. I can’t think of anything else to say, so I will shut up” 🙁
Sorry NN hope my reply didn’t come across as getting on your case. It was just a general pontification addressed to everyone. Rex
Heya Rex –
>>Sorry NN hope my reply didn’t come across as getting on your case<< No, no please of course not. I mean your post was extremely interesting but... I think the truth is I don't know what we are talking about and I've suddenly realised I don't really care! So I will let everyone else fight it out on this one. Thanks, NN
You guys are getting this all little garbled. Merit in its most easy to understand sense refers to an idea called utilitarianism. you dont have to read any eastern stuff to figure this out. utilitarianism is the idea that the just or most virtueous (meritous) action is that which does the greatest good for all. you dont need to beleave in anything to understand that. of course this is a vary deep concept someone will always have better merit than you in any situation. like you said giving your money or food to a junkie or bum will just recreate more junkies and bums (because your tell them its ok to beg to survive like that). but the idea of killing all the bums off doesnt work either (but thats pretty much what we’re mostly doing anyways right). indeed maybe in that situation what may do the greastest good is to do either continue doing nothing or figure out a way to get rid our societies need to create bums. the key is wisdom. if you dont know how to help the bum problem (if it is indeed a problem in the first place) why would anything you do for them give you merit. merit is really magical its making the best possible result from the worst possible situations and shouldn’t be confused with fairness or morality. if you are not wise enough to understand why there are bums in the first place you have not yet accumlated the merit to help this situation. the idea in of merit in cultivation is that if you achive merit you can advance everyone, inclueding yourself with your wisdom. get it. its really simple but really deep. you dont have to waste time reading “ancient” scriptures to figure it out this kind of thing and trust if you dont understand the word merit you might want to start with something a little more easy. The more i read Michaels posts the more i realise how quick he is to bring up his distrust of religous control. I dont hear anyone asking if their being controlled by dogma do you? its a question of merit not demrit right? come on fella. i just started reading this message board yesterday to kill time between my classes and love it keep the question coming guys.
Could you give us an explanation of what merit is from your point of view?
It is easy to say its great and we should have it, but could you give us an idea of how it functions?
Is it similar to the Daoist idea of conscious/intelligent pure virtue qualities that manifest from an early heaven state out into the physical plane?
Is it accumulated only through outside “good deeds”, or can it be experienced through internal meditation only?
How is it different from the idea of “De” (virtue) in the daodejing? Lao zi does not seem to stress doing “good deeds” to accumulate merit in the daodejing, but seems to talk only about cultivating it in ones self, family, community and the world.
How is it different from the idea of “De” (virtue) in the daodejing?
Merit in fact isn’t differnt from the idea of “De”. Your born with a set amount of merit. you can waste it or cultivate more of it just like Lao tzu said.
Lao zi does not seem to stress doing “good deeds” to accumulate merit in the daodejing, but seems to talk only about cultivating it in ones self, family, community and the world.
these are true “good deeds” and he does stress this. But i think your refering to the fact that if your doing something good and expecting to get something else (for instance merit) from your actions your not accumulating merit. merit also isnt the same as altruism, which is a big misconception in many religons.
It is easy to say its great and we should have it, but could you give us an idea of how it functions?
it functions like the idea of “muscle memory”. some of us are born with a predispostion to being good at golf (or whatever skill it doesnt matter) for instance. because of our genetics or whatever golf is easier for us than most people. maybe its because our ancestors used to practice golf everyday and the best golf players got the most love and had the most childern etc. and started pass on the best golf traits right. this is how “muscle memory” accumlates over geneterations.
but also that doesnt really matter. some people dont have a gentic predispotion to golf they just wanna play a lot of golf all the time, so they practice all the time and create “muscle memory” so that golf then becomes easier for them, thus continuing to motivate them to play. but also some practices are going to be more conducive to creating the specific kind of “muslce memory” for golf and with the help of a golf master you can find these techiques and his merit (development of “muslce memory” to create his stroke) can help you achive greater merit than you could discovering this stuff on your own right. but also while your learning you might discover something even more meritous (than what your taught and maybe know one else knows about) about mastering golf and then your merit accumalates to even greater levels.
but just really wanting to be good a golf will only hurt you. you look at your master and see his merit and think golly i can never achive such greatness. thus wanting to receive alot of merit is bad because you’ll constantly be telling yourself i dont have enough merit to achive this merit. (i dont have enough golf skill to be a pro) ok im done i think everyone should be able to understand the pardox here and understand that they really already understood this paradox before i even wrote this. so go out and accumalate merit. if you do so in a way that causes the greast good for all (or at least everyone one you know) you realise your a master with great merit (at least relative some everyone you know about). so you need merit to achive high levels of cultivation, just like you sort of need a master to help you discover this stuff. peace
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