March 30, 2005 at 8:13 am #3805
Just a questions to the debaters out there. In recent discussions and especially regarding the “stages” of practice being described in some systems (Bodri’s for example) there is alot of emphasis on things taking a certain amount of time before it manifests. Or a time limit and a physical limit(s) to what can happen at what stage in practice. This being explained in detail by Bodri in his “Stages” paper. I have the impression that this in some way is also the case with HT practice.
I just want to pose bit of a theoretical but also practical question to anyone here familiar with qigong and alchemy, and who has recieved transmission from a master; Are these limitations real? Or more academically; are the stages of practice limited to certain fundamental energetic and physical changes that has a specific “schedule”, or can the transformations happen in any order and also instantaneously?
This is where the “QIGONG STATE” comes in. I’ve been fortunate to witness both personal healing and other types of transformations both on the Jing, qi and Shen level that would contradict the idea that there are any set limits to how and what can be transformed, and in what order. In the qigong state the passing of time is no longer real in an ordinary sense, and neither is causality and physical limitations. I’ve seen people rise out of their wheelchairs, and tumors shrink within minutes. On a more personal level, what Bodri talks about regarding the levels of jing, qi and shen and what time these changes take, I found not to correspond my own bodily and energetic reactions to being in the qigong state. Jing qi and shen can be fused and integrated into one in an instand if you are able to recognize the way it happens, and both the body and the mind is potentially able to change totally within a short period of time.
Anyway, I am just curious as to any views about this…
hMarch 30, 2005 at 11:19 pm #3806
I think this is a wonderful discussion point. I heard Michael describe spiritual science as experiments with totally unique results each time, as contrasted to physical science which demands the same response for their truth to be accepted. This makes sense to me and is liberating.
In that spirit, it seems there cannot be one path that is prescribed because we are dealing with multi dimensional and personal issues that are unique.
If it comes down to personal experience and anecdotal evidence, the dread of physical science, than I agree there is a progression that I am going through but one only I can recognize. It is different than anything listed. It is more like a spiral, revisiting areas again and again with fresh perspective and applications. Like today, I was doing some Fusion and reexperienced the smell of my father’s cologne and a feeling of a childs love for him that I haven’t felt in a long time. Another layer revealed itself.
I have also noticed that when I seek and receive a physical transmission from going down to Asheville or up to Tao Mtn., I break all previous limitations, which makes me think there is something to this lineage and oral transmission business. That there is “permission given” by the teacher in an energetic way that releases me from the limitations I have unconsciously placed on myself. Does that make sense?
I think the progressions on paper are there as guideposts and not jailers’ bars. babaMarch 31, 2005 at 12:00 am #3808
no limits.March 31, 2005 at 4:20 am #3810
I think everything is available at once, all methods, all abilities, and at the same time there is endless room and need for discipline, for development, for refinement, and for artistry.
It’s like G. I. Gurdjief said: A cow can be raised to a higher state of being (his lingo, but let’s say to ‘the qigong state’). What will happen? It will continue to eat grass.March 31, 2005 at 1:07 pm #3812
Speaking of breaking through limitations, I have the same experience with visits to my own teacher. And the interesting thing is that when the sudden transformations occur, things are never the same. I am not the same. And that can be on both a Jing, Chi or Shen level. It’s like jumping from one step on the ladder to the next, or more like climbing the ladder, and throwing the ladder away, to use a worn analogy.
I think these topics desereve a greater emphasis in these forums, because they increase our Wu, or recognition of what is acutally changing and reconfirms changes in practice, which often can be quite extraordinary.
Actually, getting a transmission and recieving the information hidden in the forms and meditation and presence of the teacher implies getting an insubstantial energy “upgrading” of the system that has been developed thousands of years ago. Or atleast the quality of the transmission is that of the lineage, from teacher to teacher.
I think everyone is potentially able to become a highly realized being quite suddenly if they are able to recognize and sustain the quality of the transmission they are getting. What keeps us looping around at the same level is not any physical or energetic limitations, but our lack of perception and ability to recognize what has changed…
Enough intellectual mumbling for now.
Here in Norway the girls are starting to take their clothes off.March 31, 2005 at 1:38 pm #3814
There is, if we do practice with discipline and regularity (wich implies the meaning of “gong”)there is a natural flowering of potential.
Which is quite beautiful and feels like being inspired. What really happens is that instead of focusing on “getting” it or accumulating something, there is more of a pleasure in manifesting the energy that is there. And then the artistic and playful nature that rests in everyone naturally unfolds. And when that is the emphasis on practice, instead of some austere and serious hard-core pushy attitude, practice doesn’t feel like a task, but something that happens easily.
Ofcourse, I say this while typing on a pc with chew tobacco in my lip and am postponing my stying…
Which basically sums it up for me
hMarch 31, 2005 at 1:41 pm #3816
Blablabla…poff!March 31, 2005 at 2:17 pm #3818
Your comment reminds me of a quote from the movie “A River Runs Through It”:
“All good things come from Grace,
Grace comes from art, and
art comes from work.”March 31, 2005 at 3:34 pm #3820March 31, 2005 at 3:50 pm #3822
These strike me as excellent observations.
Our Western cultures are so into sanctioning and discipline, on getting it right, preferably the first time, that it can get in the way of the excellence that is allegedly being aimed at.
We give children second and third and fourth chances all the time. “That’s ok sweetheart, no sense crying over spilt milk…”
Well, we can do the same for ourselves and each other, if only not to stifle that innate source of primal energy-creativity we, as grown-up spiritual adepts, have become so good at zeroing in on with our philosophies and spiritual disciplines. This is to be more feminine; letting things be imperfect becomes soft beauty, vulnerable works of art.
I really like Jimmi Hendrix. Ever notice how his solos seem like, at any given point, he might be “at the beginnings of fucking up”–but what turns it into artistic genuis (often, not always) is a basic joyful trust he has in his own deep well of being, of creativity.
Naturally he practiced too–but I seriously doubt he practiced like a soldier doing pushups, getting ready for war.
As usual, a balance makes for the best alchemy. I say, discipine can be viewed as a cool game… Part of an infinite adventure game that is all the more absorbing and fulfilling for being difficult to master.March 31, 2005 at 9:07 pm #3824
“Ofcourse, I say this while typing on a pc with chew tobacco in my lip and am postponing my stying…”
the mint skoal kept in a freezer is really nice in summertime…..April 1, 2005 at 12:18 pm #3826
Yup. Right on. I really enjoyed that movie.
It has an interesting connection to the Buddhist concept of Crazy Wisdom. Up to a certain point, we are intertwined in conventions, plans, ambitions, aspirations, which is ok, but no really it. They are sideproducts of our work.
But then after reaching a point, there is a realization of the futility of getting “somewhere”, and then one can be able to cut through the conventions and just enjoy what is there. Which takes alot of work.
Heraclitus said “Time is a child playing draughts. The Kingship is a child’s”.
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