the question of ‘truncated traditions’?

… actually the more I look at the Christian tradition in terms of actual teachings for self-development, the more I admire it. My problem with it has always been how incredibly mixed up in *politics* it was… plus its disastrous repudiation of nature, the body, etc. The other problem is, the teachings for self-development aren’t actually, like, taught to anybody! What’s taught is following without understanding, that indeed is ‘truncated’!

Yes I’m with you in all you say, days of the week and so forth. It is indeed ironic that cathedrals have alchemy written into them when most people occupying the cathedrals don’t believe in alchemy!… in this sense the architecture, etc., is indeed inspired by genuine things, at any rate from the Gothic period. Also the renaissance – Raphael’s ‘Anisdei Madonna’, now in London, has Hermetic sigils on the hem of the virgin’s robe – but after the so-called ‘enlightenment’ this kind of thing dried up and is not going on now though I guess!

I still feel if one hung around a genuine isolated christian monastery for any length of time one might see some interesting things. Who knows?

Like Taoism during the cultural revolution a good deal of it went underground. The renaissance alchemists were able to use the ancient iconographies with a great degree of understanding, so it appears that alchemy is able to regenerate itself to some extent, as if it is stored in the DNA of the culture. On the other hand there are interesting stories throughout western lore, and middle eastern lore, showing just how fraught all the arguments were the whole time, between the ‘letter of the law’ and the actual spirit of it, the truth.

Albertus Magnus, the great Christian alchemist, had some of his work destroyed by his pupil Thomas Aquinas, who thought he was trying to usurp God. Abraham Abulafia, the great Jewish kabbalist, was excommunicated by several of his fellow rabbis for the same reason… even though he managed somehow to get away with trying to convert the pope to Judaism! Giordano Bruno, who tried to convert a different pope to Hermetics, was not so lucky… amongst the reasons he was burned at the stake were his beliefs that Christ was not God but merely an unusually skilful magician, that the Holy Ghost is the soul of the world, that the Devil will be saved, etc. All good stuff from my point of view but against the letter of the law, so it has to go. Not to mention that the earth moves and the sun just is another star… Bruno was very much onto something, unfortunately he was not *allowed* to be onto it, and that’s what I mean by politics, not to mention simple cruelty.

So it seems to me that the truth survived although it was constantly persecuted in the west – you’re right, during the dark ages Europe was a backwater, and what arose after that contained the seeds of excellence but was at every turn forced to defend itself against ignorance. Whether it’s Fludd, Boehme, Agrippa – Crowley! He was raised a Christian fundamentalist – anyone who even referenced something interesting was instantly accused of heresy and witchcraft, which made it in practice very hairy to even contemplate it – some bishop would come out in support, be hushed by a hundred others, have to retract or burn… etc.

But I think one shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that whilst all of this was going on, not only was good work being done that we’ll never know about (how else did the tradition survive?) but in addition many influences were still alive in the countryside that allowed certain things to survive… nowadays we are so lucky all this stuff is coming out, just as in the HT so in the west too.

Interesting! j

… that a religious scholar is writing about this! At least he may get more people involved in understanding that, as you say, there is a reality behind ‘beliefs’.

The list you give, is it his? 🙂 It is a very bizarre list.
Buddha FOLLOWED zen???? ‘Platonism’ is to do with Plato’s ‘Republic’? I can’t believe a scholar wrote that!

The exoteric teachings of any religion were NEVER EVER what the religion was based upon. Religion was always based on direct experience and indeed science, direct apprehension of universal truth in other words, but afterwards only on descriptions of that truth, not on the truth itself. It is taking a long, long, LONG time for scholars to realize this!

We’ve thankfully reached a stage where taoist practices are beginning to be regarded as a better way to understand tao te ching than reading it and ‘thinking about it’… perhaps one day platonism and judaism and all the rest will be seen the same way. But I’m not holding my breath. To see how the texts of Greek philosophers even now are being completely murdered by scholars who have not a prayer of understanding them is a little saddening – but at least it has the effect of prompting them to unearth more texts to talk about, and more interesting things are found every day. j

… that’s why I said in my original reply to Dog: “I still feel if one hung around a genuine isolated christian monastery for any length of time one might see some interesting things”! As I said when you look into esoteric Christianity there is definitely something there. Dog mentioned that higher-level Christians have always had magical techniques, so why did they burn Giordano Bruno?

The monastery tradition does indeed forbid alot of these techniques exiting the walls, and there are many non-christian traditions in the west that are similar. My information also is that these traditions are linked and that sometimes quite friendly relations exist between traditional healers, hermetics, abbots in monasteries, clergy, etc. I mentioned once I’d like a peek in the vatican library one day, by one means or another…

Why this all has to be hidden, I really have no idea! I think the second reason you give, Steven, is the important one:

>>because
of the belief that ordinary people wouldn’t be
able to emotionally/spiritually handle some of
these “advanced truths”. …and that if they were exposed to
the real picture/the big picture, then they wouldn’t
be able to handle it–that emotionally and spiritually
they wouldn’t be able to handle the complete truth.<<

… we've seen the misguided nature of that approach in, for example, that youtube vid Stephen posted of the 'christian warrior woman'! Michael says the time for secrecy is drawing to a close and I agree… not necessarily on the highest and biggest things, but for sure on *some* things, I really think people should be given a break!

I really don't think we should suppose that every local pastor or vicar is in possession of arcane alchemical knowledge or something… 🙂 What I am sure is true is that the various monasteries remain repositories of things of great importance. To what extent *any* of the clergy understands them all, I'm not sure – some know something though, I do know that for certain.

It is bizarre to me to a high degree that, all this being so, basic doctrine is what it is in the exoteric christian church, and moreover, that they regularly have burned throughout their history even 'heretics' like Bruno who actually are not saying anything a real practitioner wouldn't know. (The church didn't apologize for Bruno's murder until John Paul II's day BTW.) Similar problems occur with people like Joan of Arc, and I guess Christ himself ironically might be considered by some to be the original of these!

'The church' is definitely not 'all one thing'. I remain convinced of the value of living a full human life outside a monastery and have ample evidence that high spiritual attainment is possible… but it does make one curious doesn't it? Perhaps one day I will be able to take a peak… naughty me. j

**The list you give, is it his? 🙂 It is a very bizarre list.
Buddha FOLLOWED zen???? ‘Platonism’ is to do with Plato’s ‘Republic’? I can’t believe a scholar wrote that!**

I believe what he refering to is that “The teachings of the Buddha” had evolved and that adherents parallely followed actually Chan/Zen, with the Orthodox religon.

Inner teachings are understood to follow orthodox religon/spirtual path; it helps the
student to reach transcedence..which many paths in todays quantum science worlds are missing. Huston Smith is more of a sage than an egghead honestly.

My Daoist Master that lived many years in California & Oregon Mountains often taught
even Daoism as a system was a two part expierence “orthodox religous path” & “esoteric path” one complimented the other..but it was incomplete without one side missing.

He believed any orthodox religon was in perfect alignment with Daoist inner practices.

Below is a nice talk by Huston Smith
SL

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5723928558446879967&q=huston+smith&amp;

… yeah he does seem a lovely person! Nice interview there, I will look at the whole thing when I can.

>>Buddha FOLLOWED zen???? ‘Platonism’ is to do with Plato’s ‘Republic’? I can’t believe a scholar wrote that!**

I believe what he refering to is that “The teachings of the Buddha” had evolved and that adherents parallely followed actually Chan/Zen, with the Orthodox religon.<>Inner teachings are understood to follow orthodox religon/spirtual path; it helps the
student to reach transcedence..which many paths in todays quantum science worlds are missing. Huston Smith is more of a sage than an egghead honestly.<>My Daoist Master that lived many years in California & Oregon Mountains often taught
even Daoism as a system was a two part expierence “orthodox religous path” & “esoteric path” one complimented the other..but it was incomplete without one side missing.<>He believed any orthodox religon was in perfect alignment with Daoist inner practices.<<

Interestingly, I think that is probably true of any inner practice which is scientific in nature.

j