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LOOK, STOP CUM-TRADICTIN THAT GOOD MAN PLATTO N REPPENT YE YA BAK-STABIN BLAS-FAMOUS PIMPLE SLURPIN SAUSAGE JOCKEY!!!
P> My problem is that what you describe on your website is a process that one witnesses rather then something one does.
Certainly one must do something in order to witness what you describe. >This process is played out at the level of meditation. Meaning, deliberate use of attention and the changes of energy (which can include a wide variety of feeling, perhaps some ‘visual’, and ‘non-feeling’) that result.
For instance, try each of the below, see what happens, report back.
Let’s try a little work with the heart center (hc). All of the following (might) occur simply by attention and intent.
– Can you make your hc soft?
– Can you generate a sense of gentle radiance at your hc?
– Can you feel a sense of gentle openness in your hc?When you do these things..
Where is most of the feeling of your heart center?
I would suspect that it is mostly at the periphery, and front.
If you move your attention slowly backward from there, do you feel where the feeling goes from “feeling” to “nothing” no feeling no activity?If you “look for light” in your hc (either the perphery or smaller within the still place), do you have any inward visual? ..or sensation?
Too add more to the too much I have already added..
I had a really, really, really, really, small realization the other night while playing Tennis. I was just hitting the ball back and forward and just totally focused on the game. For me, Tennis is zen and when I am playing I am at war :0. Sometimes people will talk or make comments about something in the middle of a game and I just go ” Uh-huh, right..hit the ball”. LOL.
Anyway, I had this thing come up where-some-of my inherent wisdom.what a Zen practitioner might call Prajna-started to come up. These little moments are what makes me more a Buddhist than anythything else because it makes me aware that we all have this inherent, perfect Prajna wisdm that is not born and does not die. However, as true as this is and as simple as this is, we mostly live and die without ” waking up” to this inherent perfect prajna wisdom.
For me, the process of zazen is absolutely necissary in order to uncover and then stay aware of this perfect prajna wisdom. Once uncovered, prjna wisdom is the best compass you could ever have and instantly gives you both wisdom and compassion for your own life as well as others.
Without unvocering ones own inherent prajna wisdom, we are just guessing. And as far as I can tell, zazen is absolutely essential to this awakening or uncovering of inherent prajna wisdom.
I know kieth is coming from the esoteric tibetan Buddhist school and am sure they have there own take on this and how it relates to “alchemy”.
That’s just where I am at with “all this stuff” at the moment.
I remember reading somewhere that you should pay special attention to the writings of Master Dogen and other Master’s that only started writing about there experiences or insight AFTER they experienced enlightent.
Like, talking about spiritual practice(or writing about it) before enlightenment is basically noise or like a scientists talking about his own theory of everything . Very interesting stuff, but not really authentic transmission of Dharma.
LOL if any of us get enlightened . Probably see a post one day saying ” Completely disregard everything I ever wrote.” Like these Zen guys who would throw out all of there books(Buddhist sutras) and even a written transmission from there teacher after getting Enlightened.
I remember reading one of the Chinese patriarchs after getting enlightened his teacher gave him “Inca” or seal of approval of enlightenment .The guy ripped the paper up immedietly and threw it back at the teacher saying ” What am I supposed to do with this shit!”. LOL.
Sorry, resume chat on initiating bliss in the deep centers or just watching processes actualize themselves.
YOu are so very right. Even two years from now if you read some of this stuff one may think “what the heck was I doing back then?”
But it does pass the time and it is well worth the laughs, good humor and friendship. Yes?
It does more than pass that time. We are all walking around in the fog, trying to get somewhere. Each of us describing what he sees — or thinks he sees — from where he is. Some of it is misleading, some of it is partially true, most of it is well intentioned, and all of it, with a little bit of luck, will help us move further on in the fog.
By the way, lately, I’m distrusting the whole “enlightenment” concept. Like, “oh, there I was mucking around and then, one day BAM! — I got my diploma and NOW I really know what’s what”.
To me this sounds like a description borne out of ignorance. Kind of like the people in the fog see some guy who reached high ground and say “ah, he’s really made it” — but the truth is the guy on the high ground is surrounded by fog as well, and just ever so slightly more sure of his direction.
I’m not sure I understand your non-understanding. All he’s saying to turn your concentration inward to certain points — THAT’S THE PROCESS — and then certain other things will naturally unfold.
This is similar to many zen schools that have you concentrating on your dan tien while stilling your mind.
Also, you of all people should understand the concept of “linkage” with the universal once your reach a point of ultimate stillness (or ultimate “deep center” as Keith might say). The separation of boundaries between “I” and the universe is at the very core of the practice you profess to be following these days.
Really, what he’s describing is fusion without all the pakuas and collection points, and other manipulation. Or, to put it another way, fusion that is very zen influenced.
Good discussion, and you just said something that really piqued my interest.
First off, a quickie, is power love and wisdom center equivalent to upper (head), middle (heart) and lower (belly) dan tien?
Second and more importantly, you say “If you move your attention slowly backward from there, do you feel where the feeling goes from “feeling” to “nothing” no feeling no activity?”.
Do you mean when I do this and go to “nothing” I am approaching my “deep center”?
I always think of “going deeper” into, say, the heart center as just concentrating more on the “front channel” heart center. I never “move backward” to find deepness. And indeed, one of the frustrations I have with my central channel is I don’t really “feel” it. I have the same issue in the lower dan tien as well (I don’t play with the head too much, but actually think I do a better job of finding geographical center up there).
But you seem to be saying two things, first that my “deep heart center” is in my core channel, right?
Second, you seem to be saying that I shouldn’t really feel my core channel, because it is still. So to concentrate on it and sort of loose my bearings (which is what generally happens to me) is actually a good sign.
But if this is correct, it leads to the next question: if I loose my bearings when looking for the central channel, how to concentrate on it? (Or is it just a matter of gradual practice?)
I recognize the above is a bit jumbled because I’m just kind of spitting this out. But hopefully you can shape this a bit. Please let me know your thoughts.
Yes, I do understand this the problem is that he is describing a stage where the channels are already very open and the kundalini is about to ignite.
For most people this is far, far away and it may be hard for them to practice without visualizaton/actualization (*smirk*) LOL!!!
If their deep center is very dirty then what? Maybe breathing or mantra is better as a method…
I am totally cool with Keith and the Tibetan/esoteric school is something I have the most affinity for despite my constant Buddhist/Taoist/Zen debate style.
s> is power love and wisdom center equivalent to upper (head), middle (heart) and lower (belly) dan tien? >
Yup.
I’m just trying to find normal words to this stuff that everyone can recognize.s> Second and more importantly, you say “If you move your attention slowly backward from there, do you feel where the feeling goes from “feeling” to “nothing” no feeling no activity?”.
Do you mean when I do this and go to “nothing” I am approaching my “deep center”? >
Correct.
The deep-centers (and the central channel that connects them) have a natural connection to stillness. There is actually less (maybe even no) feeling there. As contrasted with the periphery, where there is more feeling and “spin” (meaning, activity and a tendency to try to change things).s> But you seem to be saying two things, first that my “deep heart center” is in my core channel, right? >
Yes.
The core channel goes through all of the centers.s> Second, you seem to be saying that I shouldn’t really feel my core channel, because it is still. So to concentrate on it and sort of loose my bearings (which is what generally happens to me) is actually a good sign. >
Correct.
It has a natural connection to the classic states of stillness, emptiness, all that Big Undifferentiated Stuff. “Nirvana”, btw, translates as “no wind”.You are finding the “mysterious pass”, and it is just the qualites – rather, the lack of qualities – that make it mysterious. Its a gateway to Nothin’. Its the place inside of you, in the deep-center of you, that goes from “me feeling all this stuff and reacting and acting and pushing and pulling on the outside world” to Not That.
s> But if this is correct, it leads to the next question: if I loose my bearings when looking for the central channel, how to concentrate on it? >
Well, by everything you’ve just written, you are finding it, you’re just getting your bearings that its ok, actually a good non-thing.
s> (Or is it just a matter of gradual practice?) >
Correct again.
p> the problem is that he is describing a stage where the channels are already very open and the kundalini is about to ignite.
..
If their deep center is very dirty then what? Maybe breathing or mantra is better as a method… >Correct. If there is too much turbidity, then the stillness of the deep-center is obscured. In the Tibetan schools, there are huge huge stages of work prior to central channel work. 100,000 prostrations, 100,000 repetitions of mantra, and 100,000 i-forget-what. All that, imho, is meant to open the channels, refine one’s energy, to steady one’s attention on pure states of consciousness (deity practice). And, very important, transmission from a Realized Teacher gives the pure boosts of energy needed to purify one’s muck, light up the subtle body, and bring states of awareness close and available. Part of it is all of that, which is a lot, a lot a lot. 🙂
Part of it also, is just repetition (and knowledge of steps). Refining and blending energy in whatever way suits you, and bringing it into the deep-centers. The experience gradually deepens, one’s fluency with the process increases over time. The thing is, this method rests on very deep stuff; and so the results, over the long haul, are quite positive. Its a method that should be known, so that you can cultivate it as & when you feel its appropriate.
Well..I am beginner by all accounts so can’t comment to much on “Enlightenment” or what I think those who attained enlightenment were at.
I try to just look at peoples behavior. It may not always be the accurate measuring stick but it is something to go by . those few that I have met that are supposedly enlightened or atleast self realized(1st or maybe 2nd Dyhana) from the Buddhist teaching seem to have pretty refined, upstanding behavior and all around developed human beings.
Now, I am not getting into it because it is not my place to say, but P told me things about Master Nan that would blow your mind if it is true and make you think this guy clearly has something I do not.
But if you think he is full of shit(not saying you do but I know you 2 aren’t exactly eye to eye on issues) maybe you think he made those stories he told me up.
In any case, what do I know?
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