What exactly is Kan & Li? (re-tracking)

m> the Tibetan tantrics are using analogous processes to Tao alchemists. >

And that your emphasis of the core channel, nuetral space, energy, goes some significant way towards remedying that. .. towards resolution of the energy work into something coherent that bridges to more formless states.

This is just correct application of the fundamental trinity underlying all alchemy: yin, yang, and yuan chi. This third force is sometimes called “wang chi”, sometimes confusing called “tai chi”, but mostly goes unidentified because the ego cannot manipulate it.

Without understanding this third force your practice will suffer in swings between various polarities – even very highly accomplished practitioners. (Attachment to notion of Emptiness is example).

The lack of understanding this third force is what plagues most Buddhist and many Taoist schools at the theoretical level. It forces a false emphasis on formless as good and form as bad, and creates value judgements about “yang” being good and “yin” being bad, etc. On the cosmic scale, this is equivalent to Heaven JUDGING Earth. Yuan chi is neutral in nature, but converts itself into form or formless as is needed to maintain the balance between them. Hence, Truth is neither yin nor yang, but all three forces as one.

I plant the seed of this understanding in my funda mentals classes, even though the students will not be able to grasp this as a reality until much later, which the seed sprouts due to a correct sequence of practices balanacing yin and yang at jing, chi, and shen levels. Correct sequencing is highly emphasized in Taoist neidan schools.

The alleged split in this group I think comes more from people overlaying their experience with Chia onto me. There was a big split within the HT when Chia began changing the original training sequence and jumbling it together, among other things.

m> My critique of Bodri/Nan is not directed at tantric buddhists, but rather their critics in the Chan school that think they can bypass all the generation stage yogas. >

>Again, agreed.
If the layers of the body are not trained to return to the center, and transform there, then the body will keep producing desire (even if the practioner can access stillness during meditation, and/or often times in life). The center is skillfull means.

I don’t adopt this interpretation that desire is bad; nor do many tantrics who simply use desire as the guide for what is being transmuted in the present moment. Desire is essential to spiritual progress – without desire, who will practice? Desire for unity is the soul impulse behind sexual desire. So alldesire is some soul aspect, even if it be a fragment of the soul, communicating its need for completion. Some of that completion will come externally, and some internally. So it is really just a question of guiding and harmonizing desires and balancing them, not eliminating them.

And because most desires are directed at some form, this desire to eliminate desire becomes a judgement against ALL form (also known as Earth). Its a false judgment, because the desire for form arises in the formless, that is WHY incarnation happens. Spirit is transmuting itself into matter because it DESIRES to see itself – not because someone was bad in a previous life (what I call the false theory of Karma).

So the issue of desire cannot be resolved in the formless, since it arises there. Again, the tension between form and formless can only be resolved by a third state, the original (yuan) state of the trinity of jing,chi, shen in the primordial unity-chaos state. That state is not a distant historical memory – its in the deep core of every human being. IIMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT JING – ESSENCE OF FORM – IS PRESENT IN THE PRIMORDIAL. Evolution is unfolding that original “self” into the physical/Earth and formless/Heaven planes.

>This goes along with certain energetic developments, and recognition of Mind, that align with the Philosophy. If people don’t have the Philosophy, they often get lost in middle terrain. I would say that Chia’s HT is entirely missing Philosophy, and it can mean travesty for many. Emphasizing emptiness-only errs on the other side of the spectrum.

Totally agree. But I never held this against Chia, even though I saw in the very beginning that his personal level of achievement was midplane only.
It forced me to supply the Philosphy myself and correct or augment what was missing in a form suitable for westerners. Chia is a nut and bolts kind of energy mechanic, and that is probably the only type that could penetrate the western psyche. The west had previously virtually ignored or marginalized high Taoist philosophy into a fluffy little corner of mysticism.

Chia’s destiny was to crack open the secrecy around Tao inner alchemy and plant its seed in the west. That alone is a big job, and I truly respect him for it. And to include the fact that sexuality was the cornerstone issue was truly brave. He has completed his destiny. I was angry with him for other things, but in the big picture I had to finally let go of that anger when weighed against his core accomplishment. Plus he attracted a great community of free thinking adepts – whose destiny is to take things to the next step in the West.

m> in taoist alchemy, where the rubber meet the road is in the coupling of “yin within the yang, and the yang within the yin”. This second level of refining gives substance to the prenatal. It was just my speculation that you were into that level. >
>Interesting. I’m pretty clear that I’ve gotten some things and have missed some things. 🙂
>So, say with heart & kidneys, the fire of the heart can be brought under the kidneys, and that the fire of the kidneys can rise to the water of the heart. (and other variations of yin/yang heart~kidneys interaction) That is two layers of kan & li blending. I’d not gotten that distinction as clear as this before. Thank you. (And please correct my interpretation here, if need be.)
>I guess a student has to start with “heart as fire, kidneys as water”, get some out of that, and then finer distinctions (yang and yin of heart, yang and yin of kidneys) become more apparent – and accessable for practice. Nice.

Its unfortunate, but I often cannot take students to this second level of refining in their first lesser K&L class. Its easier now, as I have been preparing students for it starting from Chi Kung Fundamentals 1. Otherwise they just ahve too much to absorb in one week, and the first coupling is enough for them to chew on. It depends on the group, whether it barely gets mentioned or actually taught. I did a whole course on the second level of refining once in Switzerland, and should probably make that available. Second refining will happen spontaneously with practice, after the mixed polarities get cooked out. But modern householder practioners don’t always get to that easily unless it is pointed out. SAme problem with any “spontaneous alchemy” path – it may unfold very slowly. Hence the formulas.

Two points of clarification:
1. Do not confuse heart and kidneys pearls (post-natal fire and water) with the “raw”, ie. impure/mixed PRIMAL fire and water that is being first coupled. You have shifted from five phases/pearl to core trinity/three forces interaction. This is transition from post-natal to pre-natal. Its NOT the same fire and water.

2. Chris Iin posting) has identified a secondary aspect of this first coupling, that is also post-natal (Fire pearl is in water territory). This is not exactly the same as the second level refining, which engages the pure Fire and Water of the pre-natal realm and uses their volatility to cook and crystallize the post natal water and fire so the elixir crystallizes.

This is one function of the next formula, the Greater, using solar and lunar power to fix yin and yang sexual forces, as sun and moon are pure and not corruptible by humans. But the lesser second refining is a little different, as the water and fire of the pre-natal (on left and right sides of early heaven I Ching diagram) represent the pre-natal hun and po. Eva Wong’s Dragon and Tiger Classic does a relatively good job of explaining it, but you cannot decode it unless you’ve already got a transmission of the formulas.

>ime, the term “kan & li” gets used quite broadly, by different schools, to refer to various stages and methods of blending. I’d skipped ahead to transformations of consciousness that occur by letting the energy do specific things in the deep-center. (Which I will write about at some point.)

love to hear it. Every experiment produces some result, the aggregate is what defines progress. We don’t know what’s possible until someone tries something new.

m> And definitely not trying to appropriate Tsongkhapa’s accomplishment for myself – I am not at his level. >

A relief to hear you say that. My previous take on your comment had me.. a little activated. 😉
m> But I could tell from the frequency and direction of chi flow in the cave that it involved the center of the earth – and its deep jing – in the equation. Its a pathway familiar to me >
Cool. I could certainly see that the vibe from his work would harmoniously strengthen your work. (Which is a compliment, like saying, “I can see where you would get groove out of studying with Beethoven” – if we were musicians, and if Beethoven had a cave, and if there was a piano in that cave.)

I realized in the cave that Tsongkhapa a very high level immortal. I had listened to long discourses on his teachings before, but hadn’t really “met” him. It is, I am certain, why I added Tibet to my trip – I knew there was something/somebody waiting for me,but didn’t know who. So when I stumbled into his cave – one room of 999 in the Potala palace, I had many realizations.

His continuing strong pressence at the jing level, from the core of earth, through the cave (where it radiated out and was really the foundation for modern Tibetan culture) all the way “up” and “in” simultaneously to the outer and inner heavens is exactly my definition of immortality.

His personal self merged with the greater “self” of earth and heaven. That is one reason why I don’t use the Buddhist No Self paradigm – because Nature/Cosmos itself is a Self, on both the form and formless level, even though Tao is not.

His continuing presence is an expression of his refined personal essence and his willingness to remain as a bridge between dimensions. So No Self really to me just means letting go of limitations of the lesser self. This gets into the need for a strong self to even do alchemy, to act as a biinder for the cosmic forces. That Self may be infinitely open within its cauldron, but it still has definition as indivudal self in the physical plane.

I hope this helps to close the splits that may exist in some minds.

Inner Smiles,
Michael