February 26, 2006 at 7:00 pm #10994
Michael, Max and all,
What exactly is ‘letting go’ in your experience?
In my life I observed two types:
‘Letting go’ as a result out of pain or loss, where we make a choice ‘to let go’ or to hang on to a situation or person.
I have people claiming they have ‘let go’ a problem or situation from the past. Yet when starting to dig into the body/organ, memories start to arise and they are surprised ‘it is still there’…
It is without doubt that on some level we let go, mainly emotional or mental but when entering the body memory it is still there. We think we let go, but the information is NOT fully digested or completed at all levels.
Like: What I don’t have (example: a fulfilling relationship), what I don’t achieve (being a master), what is said to be wrong by teachers (my guru tells me sex is bad), what is lost (loved one death). We try to accept it and let go. Is it really ‘gone’ or is it a way of dealing with situations?
‘Letting go’ out of surrender and joy, complete acceptance of a situation, a complete understanding of the ‘problem’. Meaning that you have to ‘understand’/’feel’ and embrace something fully and totally,which is a complete different feeling in my experience.
I only once had such a complete and total understanding, a complete forgiveness towards myself. It felt like bliss, I was so happy, and I felt so much sadness for what I did to myself. I understood completely what I was causing to myself. Yet it took many years after that moment and many lessons, to really forgive and to let go the bad feelings about myself.
In that same time frame I had an experience I died on the battle field hit by a bullet. I felt how I died and it was super. I don’t fear death yet I do fear the pain it will cause to those who will be left. I fear the pain before the actual death. I have seen so much pain with patients. I haven’t let go that one.
Yet the letting go out of pain can become a letting go in joy. Yet not many achieve that. I have seen many people suffer and dying. Not many really let go, only in the last moments before death there is this peace coming. Often they got so much morfine/pain killers it is a unconscious death. But that is another issue.February 26, 2006 at 8:29 pm #10995
Depends what you’re letting go of. With emotions, better to transform. Otherwise, it gets to a deep subconcsious level in the body/organs like you said. On that level, it should be transformed rather than giving it to a part of the field and dumping your garbage on someone else. Follow the universal law of non-interference.
On the material level, better to let go as a way to reach non-attachment – man’s original foundation. For example, breatharianism is about letting go towards self-sufficiency. Take what you need, discard what you don’t need. You mentioned “letting go out of…” Better to “let go” out of positive emotions not negative emotions. Through wisdom and following the laws of the universe (Dao).
About what Nnonnth said, letting go can be death when done to extreme. Bottom line is to use other means rather than letting go.
FajinFebruary 27, 2006 at 8:57 am #10997
it’s a good question. I was referring to letting go of any personal pattern.
I think letting go is fine a first stage strategy – it can open up new space. It’s simple, like breathing out.
But as you and Fajin have pointed out, it can be deceptive – usually only the symptom that is aggravating you consicously is released, and underlying patterns may remain. Breathing out is great, but its not the deep solution.
The reeason its difficult to change deep patterns I believe is because the Self has so many subtle layers and dimensions to it, that getting to the level – or to one level above the space where the pattern exists – requires deep work. It’s hard to release a pattern at the same level at which it was created.
Once you let go of a pattern, or a whole group of them (as in your dramatic example of suddenly allowing in a higher perspective) – you still need a structure to hold whatever new patterns that are allowed to come in or be created from within. You, for example, apparently were unable to fully hold the immensity of the glimpse you were given in your moment of rapid expansion to another level of self. The rest of you had to grow for some years to catch up to that vision.
That is why “killing the ego” doesn’t work, or “letting go of the ego” doesn’t work in the long run. It is just another way of saying: Attack the Five Shen! They are misbehaving! Kill them!
The ego is needed to provide human structure. it is a functional part of the whole, so it cannot be killed without killing the whole. Besides, who is going to feed you or wipe your butt if there’s no personal ego to take care of details? The ego or personal self is really the cauldron of transformation, and you want a strong cauldron that won’t crack when you begin loading in powerful new vibrational patterns into it.
It’s why I agree with Fajin, transformation of the structure is needed to provide stability in the process. Orbit and Fusion of Five element patterns are both initial structures used in alchemy to replace what is being dissolved or released. They resonate with univeral patterns of harmony and balance. They focus the new chi coming in, after the old is breathed out.
And more importantly, they offer a path of communication and interaction with the Original Spirit, which wants to become more conscious here – but cannot, if the field is too polarized by ego/shen disturbances.
hope this helps.
michaelFebruary 27, 2006 at 9:31 am #10999
>>usually only the symptom that is aggravating you consicously is released, and underlying patterns may remain< < Exactly. At that point you have a choice. Some people (perhaps some Zenites, certainly the Sedona guy you talked about before), when they sense the problem returning because the pattern is repeating, simply let go again, and this time more, and let go more, and let go more until there is nothing left. Without reintegration they spoil the process. They never re-hatch their egg. They experience the peace as only separate from real lived life. In other words it is death! Is the peace of death the solution to life? Or is life not about growth and change and revivification? >>It’s hard to release a pattern at the same level at which it was created.<< It's impossible. You must be able to see the building from outside. Then you can redesign it as opposed to simply marching around it. ("The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we set them" - Einstein.) However when you have redesigned your building you have to go back and LIVE IN IT - otherwise you say that life might as well not be lived! You say that you need not be alive and the fact that you were born makes no difference to the universe since your only job was to die = let go of life. Letting go of a problem does not solve it. It is, as Fajin says, abdication of responsibility. Progress is not about letting go of the ego, but about removing one's unconscious assumptions about it, changing and expanding one's consciousness of it until the deeper life forces can be felt as part of it and integrated in Self. There is separation between 'this' and 'that' otherwise, separation between life and death - but there can never in physical reality be such a separation, since life and death rely on one another. Those who relinquish without transforming are living in a fantasy world and their deep spirituality has become an imperfection by its over-eagerness for perfection. Perfection and imperfection are needed together and cannot be separated. Spirituality has often been separate from life. In a way we must thank the current consumer climate which demands a better life first and foremost, and will not accept retreat as a solution. best NNFebruary 27, 2006 at 2:39 pm #11001
Hej Wendy and Mike and Nnorth and others
Try to say something on this mather. I think like Mike also wrote that LETTING GO is wery good on a sertain level. We all need to let go of worries and thouht patterns that are in us all the time. If we not we create more problems by over thinking than is needed. So the qustion of letting go is maybe a question of quieting down the ego counsciousnes so we are more intuned whit what really is happening in the moment. And then more intuned whit what happening around us and whit our energies and what are happening whitin our uncouncious.
Maybe there are different meanings of killing ones ego to. Its depends on how we define the ego. In the past i have been reading a lot of what CG Jung has written about psychology. In his way of seeing it the ego is a part and a nessesary one of the self. And the must important thing for the ego in his model is to be flexible to be able to feel see and understund the larger self and to see the complexes and the archetypes and be able to distinguish wich part of the archetypes and komplexes should be intergrated within yourself or intergreted with the ego (~counciousnes). Meaning that this bigger forces or psychological resorses can be understood and intergrated in such a way that they are able to work as new possible way of thinking and feeling and understunding the world. And all this is the crux about therapy. So every trauma will be connected to a bigger field of personal komplexes and also to a bigger picture with collective uncounscious archetypes the whole human experience field.
I belive when spiritual leaders say the sollution is to kill the ego or to let go. They don’t meen to let go of the ego as defined by Jung. They more mean to let go of the rigid kind of ego thoughts patterns that not are open and flexible to the uncouncious or to the tao. As some peoble have said the ego are wery good at making planes and strategies but to go deeper whit emotional traumas or to just to live in harmony we have to let go of all such a rigid tendensies that the ego is creating. Stereotypic ways of thinking of any kind. Such as be to much dependent on money career or other fixations the ego is atached to. So to let go of such fixations could be to let go of your ego in another way than Jungs way of definating the ego. When letting go in this way you are more open to feelings buried in the body. And while working and reexperience the old feelings you are at the same time intergrating the Complexes and archetypes, beacase they are always, I think, intergrated whith the feelings.
But as somene wrote of this letting go philosophy to let go of everything. I see this as a rule to. We have been talking about rules before. And as I see it and I belive Jung saw it. Theire is no solutions in forms of rules in your way of living your life. Such a rule of always letting go to everything, I see as such a rigid ego fixation to. So this must surely be wery contraproductive in the long run. You let go of everything exept the thing you really need to let go from your rigid ego fixations.
Sorry I know my spelling is awful. I write anyway!February 27, 2006 at 11:43 pm #11003
For me letting go is allowing the processes to happen on their own. You observe them without emotional attachment or desire to direct them the way you feel necessary. You don’t control them nor they control you- this is a the process of unconditional acceptence and trust that innate and wise ability of your Life force will do everything neccesary to be done. You don’t loose you ego nor you attach to it. You observe. Witness.February 27, 2006 at 11:49 pm #11005
I agree with what you said about ego.
Regarding going into deepest layers of your energy patterns, the process of inner observation overtime will accomplish the same.February 28, 2006 at 3:33 pm #11007
I agree with Michael also and the general opinion here re ego. I can’t say that I have attained the ultimate “tune” to allow complete balalnce on all levels however attempting to gain that has made my life extremely interesting, definately not boring and I am learning lots from the way life is infolding.
I do not believe death of ego is healthy either. Adjustment and balance but not death. I believe ego to be of human quality. Whether immortal or not …. I believe human to be part of that equation.
Just a note: I like the forum’s new style. It allows me access to information without looking thru things I find no interest in.
Kudos to you Michael and others.
Also, I agree that none needs a one on one master to grow safely. That would be preferred however rarely happens anymore. I am still waiting for my master. Maybe someday we will connect. Meanwhile I too do what I can while life happens.
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