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What Zen actually is and why it is useful for Daoists

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Home › Forum Online Discussion › Philosophy › What Zen actually is and why it is useful for Daoists

  • This topic has 8 replies, 3 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 2 months ago by Steven.
Viewing 9 posts - 1 through 9 (of 9 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • March 27, 2010 at 11:43 pm #33762
    Steven
    Moderator

    This is continued from a post below made by Chris.
    I wanted to clarify what Zen is really about, because
    most people who don’t do it or haven’t taken training
    in it, have the complete wrong idea about what you are doing.

    First a couple of responsive comments to Chris’s post,
    followed by a discussion of what Zen actually is, and
    why it is useful for Daoists to do, even though they
    have chosen Daoism (alchemical) as their primary practice.

    >>>I just lost track of all my thoughts, its all your fault.

    That’s a good start 🙂

    Sorry, but I had to note the subtle irony in your comment ^_^

    >>>To me, the yin resting phase of alchemy is still dynamic,
    >>>and doesn’t have anything to do with following the breath
    >>>or letting go of thoughts. It’s about experiencing the
    >>>qualities of energy that are in process, being more
    >>>”deeply in process”. This also implies that there is an
    >>>awareness that is aware of that experience, and is more
    >>>deeply embodied.

    It is a mistake to think that Zen is about trying to
    get rid of thoughts or trying to reach a neutral “still” point.
    It’s more about devaluing the importance of them, of seeing
    them as only thoughts and nothing more, of not allowing
    such things to pull you out of the present moment.

    It’s also a mistake to think that Zen is “transcendent”,
    of being escapist. It’s very much embodied, despite
    what a lot of people think. The point is to be completely
    in your body in the present moment and have full awareness
    from inside your body–and not your head–of being alive.
    “Be here. Right now.”

    Following the breath is simply an “anchor” or “tool” that
    is used in the practice to help a person stay fully
    in the present moment and in your body, and to not
    let thoughts take you away from the present moment.
    The breathing is done to the “tan-tien” (i.e. dantian)
    area with the idea of bringing your consciousness more
    deeply into your body’s breathing. i.e. it’s done
    *to remain* in your body and to not become lost in your mind.

    In other words, despite misconceptions, it is a VERY embodied
    practice . . . and quite the opposite from trying to escape
    from something . . . almost as if you are training yourself
    to avoid being *seduced by escapism*!!

    So it is exactly what you describe about being in
    process as in alchemy.

    I only consider to be MORE YIN than resting in alchemy, because
    in alchemical meditation (or at least I should say in my case,
    but I suspect that others have this as well) that oftentimes
    the mind can intervene and try to attach stories to what
    is going on in process or try to take over and run the show.
    Thus the Zen training has as an effect that it
    trains the mind to NOT get involved or disrupt the sensation
    of being embodied.

    Thus, if you are an academic or if you have a very busy mind
    (like myself), it is ESSENTIAL practice to supplement the
    alchemy, and helps you to go deeper when you actually do do
    alchemy, because you notice that your mind starts to
    interfere less and you can be “more in your body”.

    In other words, Zen training helps the alchemy work better.
    This, plus the training of being more in the present and
    less in your mind is beneficial for its own reward.

    Steven

    April 4, 2010 at 1:07 am #33763
    Swedich Dragon
    Participant

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5902279151658995270#
    Amoung the white clouds

    Found this video on the tao bums. It is rather interesting and they have
    interviews with some hermits in the mountain.

    I’ve got a nice feeling from it and liked the scenary, mountain areas and beeing in the nature, doing spiritual work and body work for survival and as a spiritual practise to. I’m also a bit skeptical about to strive for the Buddha natur and to let that mean everything.

    Nice film anyway, I recomend it if you have some spare time about one and a half hour.

    SD

    April 4, 2010 at 1:11 am #33765
    Swedich Dragon
    Participant

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5902279151658995270#
    Amoung the white clouds

    Found this video on the tao bums. It is rather interesting and they have
    interviews with some hermits in the mountain.

    I’ve got a nice feeling from it and liked the scenary, mountain areas and beeing in the nature, doing spiritual work and body work for survival and as a spiritual practise to. I’m also a bit skeptical about to strive for the Buddha natur and to let that mean everything.

    Nice film anyway, I recomend it if you have some spare time about one and a half hour.

    SD

    April 4, 2010 at 1:17 am #33767
    Swedich Dragon
    Participant
    April 4, 2010 at 11:34 am #33769
    Steven
    Moderator

    Hi SD,

    Yeah, I actually OWN this on DVD. It’s pretty good.

    I’m a hermit at heart, and live the hermit lifestyle
    for approximately one month per year in the winter
    at a small hermitage in a remote location.

    I spend my time doing qigong and alchemical meditation
    from the Healing Tao, listening to Michael’s CDs, reading
    M. Chia’s books, reading Daoist texts (i.e. Livia Kohn books)
    and magazines (Empty Vessel).

    While I’m there, as another practice, I do Zen meditation also . . .
    However, as I’ve tried to argue, it is actually a practice that
    came from Daoism originally; and moreover, it is a useful practice
    for Daoists to do to supplement the alchemy, in my view.

    But even regardless of whether you add that on or not, the
    point is that you can be a Daoist hermit instead of a Buddhist one,
    so you don’t have to do it like the ones in the video do it.
    In fact, Alchemical Daoism is–for the most part–a hermit
    tradition . . . passed from one hermit to the next over the
    centuries, e.g. One Cloud was a hermit!! M. Chia removed the
    limitation to the hermit line when he learned it from One Cloud
    and decided to spread it to the world, but the hermit way is
    very much part of our history.

    If you want real acceleration, go and be a hermit and be isolated
    for a month and just do practices. The stuff that you’ve got
    buried and didn’t even know you had buried starts coming
    up; it can get emotionally tough to stay isolated because of that;
    but if you can have the courage to remain in isolation and face
    your demons, along with doing more practice, then real change happens,
    and you don’t leave the same person you were when you arrived.
    I highly recommend it to *serious* practitioners.

    Steven

    April 4, 2010 at 3:14 pm #33771
    Swedich Dragon
    Participant

    Yes I can immagine the strong effect it will have on a practioner. Sounds a bit scary to me so perhaps I need it 😉

    SD

    April 5, 2010 at 1:00 am #33773
    Dog
    Participant

    You might like this.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5902279151658995270#docid=-5727683115704197128

    April 5, 2010 at 2:43 am #33775
    Swedich Dragon
    Participant

    Yes wery enyoyable. Shit I have to try harder ! 🙁 🙂

    SD

    April 5, 2010 at 5:19 pm #33777
    Steven
    Moderator
  • Author
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