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I rececently met a person who talked with a someone who studied with White Cloud, he told me White Cloud taught Emptiness as a key to his practice, so hopefull this gives you all something to think about.
Also, as I have always beleived, there is no “imagining” things, colors, etc., but there is intention/Yi on certain organs/areas/centers which over time colors appear, it was clear imagining colors does not accelerate the process, it will happen as your body is refined and cultivated. You cannot feed a five year old more food to grow faster to being an adult.
Dont ask who the person is, Im not telling. This is the most credible source I have met on White Cloud.
regards,
bagua
Hi Bagua,
What happened? I thought you became a dead tree?!(j/k)
Well personally, I disagree with some things of the Five Interior Gods School like for example recently with Singing Ocean as I discussed about the personal shen of kidneys and spleen which I disagree with.
But on the issue of using visualizations, I will have to disagree with you on that. You have inspired me to go and look up Zen/Chan and so I have.
Recently, I’ve been trying to be fully aware of every moment. It is true that you can experience wuxing of the collective by being aware of everything in every moment. It does bring neutrality, and you can experience things in their true sense. However, through this does not have the free will to do what you want. Because there is only neutrality.
Visualizing a golden colour at the dantian gives a different sensation in the dantian, and even the effect is different. Like in Dumo when you visualize a red flame at dantian, it gives a very hot sensation.
Or in rooting practice, blue water filling your bones can have a very solidifying effect on the bones and roots pretty well.
Colours do appear through emptiness too. But through emptiness, you do not get what you want specifically because you are neutral. I think that it’s good to use emptiness as a start as Michael says because it’s like starting from a blank state, or an empty cup so that it may be filled.
Btw, isn’t it One Cloud, not White Cloud from what I’ve read in Chia’s books?
Smiles from the Heart,
FajinHi Fajin:
Yes it is One Cloud, sorry.
Well personally, I disagree with some things of the Five Interior Gods School like for example recently with Singing Ocean as I discussed about the personal shen of kidneys and spleen which I disagree with.
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I may be wrong, but it is Michael, not Chia that used Five Interior Gods as the center of his presentation, not that others dont use the model of five shen of organs/etc., but it is not the entire emphasis, you have discussed another view of 3-shen model as the centerpiece. So the emphasis can be different.But on the issue of using visualizations, I will have to disagree with you on that. You have inspired me to go and look up Zen/Chan and so I have.
Recently, I’ve been trying to be fully aware of every moment. It is true that you can experience wuxing of the collective by being aware of everything in every moment. It does bring neutrality, and you can experience things in their true sense. However, through this does not have the free will to do what you want. Because there is only neutrality.
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It takes a long time to fully know this state, where it is your normal functioning, not needing to do anything or do any empty meditation, it is what we really are, we have the possibility of being in this awareness any and all the time.Empty or if you like to say Neutrality is the portal to experiencing/seeing your true nature, which is part of the universe, so this neutral or empty space reveals all of life in a pure consciousness. Seeing life from this view allows us to see life in all its variety, this is not limiting, but endless.
“Free Will” can be a big barrier, we are part of this universe, we can never leave it, so no amount of intention or intellectual free will can change this.
Visualizing a golden colour at the dantian gives a different sensation in the dantian, and even the effect is different. Like in Dumo when you visualize a red flame at dantian, it gives a very hot sensation.
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Yes
Some use that method, others do not.Or in rooting practice, blue water filling your bones can have a very solidifying effect on the bones and roots pretty well.
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YesColours do appear through emptiness too. But through emptiness, you do not get what you want specifically because you are neutral. I think that it’s good to use emptiness as a start as Michael says because it’s like starting from a blank state, or an empty cup so that it may be filled.
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Neutral opens the gate to experiencing this universe as our creator intended, which is sometimes action, sometimes passive, sometimes fast, sometimes slow, it includes all aspects of life.For me, after many years of Qi Gong, the colors appear without visualizing colors; I can feel my organs without trying. This is what Im saying.
As we cultivate and refine our energy or consciousness, we are able to perceive our normal relationship to this unvierse, as a collective and individual field, this is realizing we are eternal and immortal.
If one has a 9-step process, then they mostly likely have to follow it, it may or may not work.
The problem is most look at other methods through the eyes of their model, old problem that continues on.
Try reading some of Zen Master Seung Sahn works, one of my favorites.
Smiling in the Tao, hope you are too.
bagua
I think it would be helpful at this point to look at the exact chinese word that is used, and what the meaning is. It is highly probable that if one is using the term xu or wu, that it is the formless state that is being referred to, the energy body, or the feeling of qi flow, not necessarily the complete absence of everything that emptiness refers to.
The term Wu Ji literally translated comes across as “without limit”, so there must be SOMETHING that is limitless that is being referred to.
It is interesting what you said about using colors and such, because I have always been a non-visual person and could not visualize the colors very well even when I tried, but I can FEEL the quality of each element very clearly. This may also be an issue that people have of trying to intellectualize things without feeling them.
Hi Bagua,
Yes, I’m smiling in the Dao too.
I hope that you understand by now with discussing with me that I too do not like fixed methods. Personally, I will buy all of Michael’s material and adapt it to my own schedule and further refine it. It will not be 7 formulas of inner alchemy for me. The names are used to distinguish each formula.
In daily life, I will see what needs work on, and then figure out what kind of cultivation I need to do for it. For example, let’s say I have arthritis, let’s try rooting and working on the kidneys to solidify the bone. The same goes for all aspects of life to attain wu-wei.
I also feel the qi too even when I don’t concentrate on my dantian. As you know, I train alot and don’t need any visualization to feel the sensation. But visualization is what works specifically on the matter. It makes the communcation more apparent.
You sound alot like Bruce Lee with your integration of Dao and Chan, read some of his material. You remind me of him. Bruce was not an alchemist but he did apply Zen and Daoist philosophy in daily life to the best he could.
I still think though, that Daoist cultivation is complete without Chan, because it values a higher level of free will, imho. Neutrality is not free will because there is no choice. You are only bound to cultivating that one thing, that empty space. That’s the only intent, it is therefore an absolute state like Singing Ocean said, which I agree with. You get no freedom to choose what you want. Life is about choices, neutrality does not give those choices.
P.S. I will read up some stuff on Zen Master Seung Sahn, but later!
Smiling in the Dao,
FajinSmiles from the heart,
FajinHi fajin:
I agree with you, that at some point we do what we need and modify formulas, that have been modified many times already to fit our needs and life. Thats music to my ears.
I just want to differentiate something. Do Qi Gong for fatigue or arthritis or any other condition or healing others has nothing to do with Spiritual development, may Qi Gong masters and healers are not too spiritually developed.
Bruce Lee was an interesting man, but its good to distuinguish between his real life and his hollywood image. From what I know he did not learn the whole system of Wing Chun, its one reason he had to learn other systems to find an answer to problems presented by martial arts of America/World. Also he did not spar with people like Joe Lewis/kicking boxing champ, lee saught him to train with before his movie fame, he did not spar with him or others like him. Only did drills with him.
I just think the chan experience is inside taoist alchemy, so the technique is not important. When we do alchemy, at some point we then usually sit quitely, do nothing, let it all just happen, just be aware, enjoying, this is Chan. No words can explain it, it can not be defined, it can not be trapped, its beyond our intellectual communicaiton. Chan is about attaining and expressing this level of awareness directly.
Wishing you good training and meditation/nei gong.
bagua
Sure–and I believe it was White Cloud back in the day. You weren’t chanelling. They changed it which is why I made that joke. 🙂
I got the joke, very good.
The reason I ask is experience defines words. Laguage is important but expereience of these things is more important.
bagua
Hey Bagua,
I agree with you that doing qigong specifically for something like arthritis or fatigue or whatever it may be is not spiritual development. But, I’m glad that you can agree with me that you CAN do it for specific reasons, which is why I wanted to address the issue of doing it SPECIFICALLY for finding one’s original nature.
We can pretty much say that allowing Original Spirit to emerge would uncover our original nature. That ego, our personality, overshadows it. So why not practice alchemy that does SPECIFICALLY that. Working on the body-soul issue as Michael suggested. That goes for SPECIFICALLY our original nature to work on shen. That’s the main point I wanted to address.
About Mr. Lee, I think he was a very well accomplished person and there is much more than meets the eye if you look at him more than a Hollywood star. I read pretty much all of his books, I know quite a bit about him. Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis both studied under him. It said in the Washington Star.
The reason he went to other systems of martial arts is because he saw that Man is separated. That there is partiality. That the Chinese way of fighting is the best way, or the Japanese is the best way, or the Thai is the best way is a division amongst people. So he studied everything he could and unified his experiences into Jeet Kune Do.
His motto was, “using no way as way, having no limitation as limitation.” He knew that humans have two arms, two legs and can move circular, straight, etc. and he formulated based on efficiency, not tradition, the style of no style but had to give it a name.
I wish you all the best, Bagua.
FajinHI Fajin:
I agree with you that doing qigong specifically for something like arthritis or fatigue or whatever it may be is not spiritual development. But, I’m glad that you can agree with me that you CAN do it for specific reasons, which is why I wanted to address the issue of doing it SPECIFICALLY for finding one’s original nature.
We can pretty much say that allowing Original Spirit to emerge would uncover our original nature. That ego, our personality, overshadows it. So why not practice alchemy that does SPECIFICALLY that. Working on the body-soul issue as Michael suggested. That goes for SPECIFICALLY our original nature to work on shen. That’s the main point I wanted to address.
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Yes, it can do that, but no system works for all people, so some may need another method.Also, Michael is working on his explanations of cosmology, it is a work in progress and has changed in some instances year to year, and much over last 10-years, but the reality of life is not based on human development.
About Mr. Lee, I think he was a very well accomplished person and there is much more than meets the eye if you look at him more than a Hollywood star. I read pretty much all of his books, I know quite a bit about him. Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis both studied under him. It said in the Washington Star.
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The newspaper may have said that, they say all kinds of things. they shared knowledge, but if you reseach Joe Lewis’s own words, it will be what i said.His motto was, “using no way as way, having no limitation as limitation.” He knew that humans have two arms, two legs and can move circular, straight, etc. and he formulated based on efficiency, not tradition, the style of no style but had to give it a name.
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yepbagua
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