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May 8, 2006 at 1:23 am #13636FajinParticipant
Hi Bagua,
>>Yes, it can do that, but no system works for all people, so some may need another method.<>but the reality of life is not based on human development.<<
*The reality of life is wuxing. Processes. Not an absolute state, this is where we disagree mostly. Human development is a process too.
Regards,
FajinMay 8, 2006 at 1:31 am #13638FajinParticipantHi Max,
Tell me how it is possible to have a choice if you are neutral. If you can do that, you are a genius! That’s why I (and apparently Singing Ocean) say it’s an absolute state, because there is no choice.
Let’s say you are in a debate, and someone tells you to pick a side, but you CANNOT choose because you are neutral. You are in between. Totality deals with yin-yang-yuan, not just yuan. That’s why Michael says Chan has no yin-yang movement, you are like a dead tree!
I patiently await for you to tell me how you can choose if you are neutral. That’s where the choice is, only one, neutrality!
Smiles,
FajinMay 8, 2006 at 2:01 am #13640baguaParticipantIts impossibe to have no yin/yuan/yang in this life, but in a non-interfering state (wu wei)that trinity is in harmony and we are one with our true nature. Instead of empty I will call it Wu Wei from now on.
In Wu Wei all of life processes continue, humans cannot stop the sun and moon from their paths, we can go with the cycles of nature, this is the guidance of taoist teaching. Wu Wei is attuning to this process of nature/humanity.
bagua
May 8, 2006 at 2:24 am #13642singing oceanParticipantmixing and refining!
May 8, 2006 at 2:36 am #13644baguaParticipantIndividual development is a process, if you believe there are Immortals and achieved people on this planet, the awareness they perceive exists now, regardless of where you are at as an individual. The invidiual does not determine this immortal/eternal universal state, they attune to it. Therefore, it always exists.
Your heart beats regardless of your intent or exertions of free will, it is nature’s way. We have choice as to what we decide to attune to, attuning to tao is our goal, the vast body of tao history offers many ways to do it. Five phases is like the heart, it beats regardless of your intent, five phases flows as an expression of Tao, we are five phases, we are tao, we are yin-yang, we are trinity, we are all of these without free will and without intent. In Wu Wei we experience Tao in all its variety.
bagua
May 8, 2006 at 2:48 am #13646FajinParticipantMax and Bagua,
There is jinggong, qigong, and shengong, that each cultivate the three treasures. I guess we can say Chan is a kind of wugong, because it goes straight for wu-wei.
That’s why I say that it is absolute. It is non-changing, non-dualistic, non-attaching, etc. Why I go with jing-qi-shen-wu alchemy theory of change is because wu is cultivated by cultivating the three treasures and wu-wei is arrived at by not cultivating it.
So, I guess the word neutrality or yuan is a bad choice because it does not describe Chan. Like you said Max, we cannot describe Chan just as we cannot describe Wu Ji, but we can distinguish what’s what and what each path aims at.
In inner alchemy, there is a stage called, “Three Flowers Meet The Top” where the three treasures are cultivated at baihui, this attains that super-concsiousness (yoga – kundalini at crown chakra) or wu-wei.
Chan, on the other hand, is a wugong and so you don’t have a choice because you are NOT choosing what you specifically want. It’s an absolute state, non-changing. It’s not wu-wei if you have to attain it with effort. Work on three treasures with effort, and wu-wei will come without effort, that’s the key.
Remember the saying to be like water and adapt to anything. Well, wateris between solid and gas so it is yuan. But it can become solid (ice) or gas (steam), it can become anything, this is wu-wei. Do you see how things are being shaped? Why not shape the life force into what we want just like this. Go specifically for wu-wei by cultivating the three treasures.
Oh, and Max, I speak this from experience because I experience wu-wei in movement at a very high martial level.
Regards,
FajinMay 8, 2006 at 2:56 am #13648FajinParticipantHi Bagua,
What are your thoughts on Babaji, Sanfeng Zhang, Lu Dong Bin, etc.? Where are they right now? Thanks.
Smiles from the heart,
FajinMay 8, 2006 at 9:22 am #13650wendyParticipantBe silent and open, and you might have a close encounter, depending if it is necessary for your development/mission to have an encounter.
May 8, 2006 at 12:43 pm #13652baguaParticipantHi Fajin:
You bring up some good points.
Faj
Chan, on the other hand, is a wugong and so you don’t have a choice because you are NOT choosing what you specifically want. It’s an absolute state, non-changing. It’s not wu-wei if you have to attain it with effort. Work on three treasures with effort, and wu-wei will come without effort, that’s the key.
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Only intellect can artificially say there is no yin-yang, wu xing, etc.; when in a neautral state, they always exist, this is tao. By being in Wu Wei you allow it to manifest in a non-restinant way, this is one goal of alchemy.Neutral is only your ego, intellect or mind, it does not mean nature’s pattern stop, it means we experience them in a natural form, not conditioned form.
Faj
Remember the saying to be like water and adapt to anything. Well, wateris between solid and gas so it is yuan. But it can become solid (ice) or gas (steam), it can become anything, this is wu-wei. Do you see how things are being shaped? Why not shape the life force into what we want just like this. Go specifically for wu-wei by cultivating the three treasures.
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These are all the manifestions and changes of life, all natural.Being in wu wei is shaping the life force, it is attuning to it and it takes intent to want to do this, but when in it, there is no intent, it is natural like you doing martial arts when attacked, you do not think, you react, this is wu wei.
bagua
May 8, 2006 at 12:48 pm #13654baguaParticipantI dont know where they are or if they ever existed. Im open to the idea they are immortal and exsit, but do not blindly follow that. I know the sun, moon and the planets exsit, they allow me to exsit.
There are life forces all around us, i have felt and interact with them but I do not label them this or that.
bagua
May 8, 2006 at 3:09 pm #13656FajinParticipantHey Bagua,
You have a good understanding of wugong, as you practice it. But the experience is different in Dao and Chan. In Chan, I think it’s wu for now, and when three treasures naturally align, it is wu-wei, or superconcsiousness. My interpretation of living life in neutrality is shaping the qi field. That is the way to live life, with intent. Let wu-wei get there later, through shaping the life force through intent.
When cultivating three treasures, you get wu-wei without effort as I have mentioned in the example of three flowers meet the top. This way, you are in wu-wei and have intent simultaneously. That’s the big difference with Chan and Dao. Is that Chan does not have that. And it is not just Dao, there are other paths that attain this superconcsiousness like Yoga, Tibetan Tantra, etc. That’s why it is super-concsiousness, because you are in a super mode (wu-wei), yet concsious having intent.
Smiles from the Heart,
FajinMay 8, 2006 at 3:14 pm #13658FajinParticipantHi Wendy,
Did you have an experience with this? I would be very interested to hear if you don’t mind. Thank you for your time.
Smiles away,
FajinMay 8, 2006 at 5:03 pm #13660baguaParticipantHi Fajin:
First, I think it is only honest to realize that unless one practices Chan, better yet have interaction with a master, that anything they say about it may not be accurate.
Faj
My interpretation of living life in neutrality is shaping the qi field. That is the way to live life, with intent. Let wu-wei get there later, through shaping the life force through intent.
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It sounds like you are saying “intention is following the patterns consciously within your body, following wu xing and energy patterns”. To me this is just following what already exists with your Yi, you are not shaping anything, you are becoming aware of what already exists. Unless the two are the same, this is what I believe.If you live in the mountains, and you just take the mountains and natural enviornment in, you will attune to what already exists, nature will shape your Yi, this is Chan, this is tao.
Faj
When cultivating three treasures, you get wu-wei without effort as I have mentioned in the example of three flowers meet the top.
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If you cultivate, you are making an effort.bagua
May 8, 2006 at 6:06 pm #13662FajinParticipantOh Bagua,
You really intrigue me. I think we have the knowledge passed down for several generations and we can overcome any of life’s obstacles because we know how to shape the qi field in that way. If we didn’t know certain ways of overcoming something, I think wugong is great because we can naturally re-align towards balance in that particular difficulty that we are at.
But since we have specific techniques to allow Original Spirit to emerge, or whatever it may be we are trying to do, let’s use those. If we just needed wugong, all knowledge is then meaningless. I don’t see what the point of knowing things would be. In every single spiritual tradition, there is some kind of knowledge required. In Chan, it is just wugong, nothing is needed to be known.
For the sake of future discussions, I have practiced Tibetan Tantra and know what emptiness is about. Prior to my lung-gom-pa training, I was instructed to pick a star in the night, and gaze at it for several hours. Believe it or not, I sometimes did this for the whole night in padmasana. I know what deep trances are about and I know what wu is about, Bagua. My mind was very still. I don’t do this anymore though.
I know that when your mind is this still, your parasympathetic-sympathetic nervous system is in balance and qi flows without stagnation. Jing, qi, and shen begin to align themselves naturally as your brain is in this mode. Do nothing and nothing will be left undone.
Regards,
FajinMay 8, 2006 at 9:11 pm #13664baguaParticipantHi Fajin:
I think Tantra and Chan are two very different methods, maybe the end result is the same, I dont know, I hope so.
I think you believe the following, maybe you can let me know if yes or no or were I am misunderstanding you?
I think you believe if you consciously learn the complete cosmology and then do the formuals that corresponding to each level of cosmology and work your way back, step by step, your intellect/conscousness acheives enlightment and immortality. That you shape your Qi, three treasures, etc. in each formula to become the shape behind the cosmology? That the conscious/Yi/Intellect is critical to shaping the Qi field. Let me know if this is correct?
thanks,
bagua
Oh Bagua,
You really intrigue me. I think we have the knowledge passed down for several generations and we can overcome any of life’s obstacles because we know how to shape the qi field in that way. If we didn’t know certain ways of overcoming something, I think wugong is great because we can naturally re-align towards balance in that particular difficulty that we are at.
But since we have specific techniques to allow Original Spirit to emerge, or whatever it may be we are trying to do, let’s use those. If we just needed wugong, all knowledge is then meaningless. I don’t see what the point of knowing things would be. In every single spiritual tradition, there is some kind of knowledge required. In Chan, it is just wugong, nothing is needed to be known.
For the sake of future discussions, I have practiced Tibetan Tantra and know what emptiness is about. Prior to my lung-gom-pa training, I was instructed to pick a star in the night, and gaze at it for several hours. Believe it or not, I sometimes did this for the whole night in padmasana. I know what deep trances are about and I know what wu is about, Bagua. My mind was very still. I don’t do this anymore though.
I know that when your mind is this still, your parasympathetic-sympathetic nervous system is in balance and qi flows without stagnation. Jing, qi, and shen begin to align themselves naturally as your brain is in this mode. Do nothing and nothing will be left undone.
Regards,
Fajin -
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