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Really glad you wrote that last one dragon, and also your answer to Rex. I was beginning to think I was going mad.
>>Maybe we have a different kind of way to express orselves though.<< For sure. I am dramatic and obnoxious and have too much yang. If you err perhaps it is in the other direction... it is always easier when you meet someone though. There is a language barrier too of course but it doesn't seem a huge problem for you. >>What I try to say is that you can’t just do what you want all the time if this “do what you want” may hurt ohers<< Yes I understand. I understand what you wrote Dragon. You didn't follow me. If you don't want to hurt others, DON'T DO IT. It is just the same as everything else. DO WHAT YOU WANT. It is no different from everything else I wrote. I already said - if you want to help others, DO IT, because you WANT IT. So also, if you do not want to HURT others, DON'T DO IT, because you DON'T WANT IT! It is always the same answer. No? >>See it holistically you and the other person are somehowe connected.<< The Great Tao preserve us, do you really think I don't know THAT? ;-] Why would it MATTER if you hurt them, if you were not connected? Maybe we can get this far. I won't try to write any more about this as I'm feeling somewhat faint. best NN
Thanks I’m glad to for this answer. Where a little bit affraid you shouldn’t. I do no comments on this I think we have said enough and I have been aprichiating this even though it has been I guess as hard for me as for yourself. If we talk to eachother on this sait again I’ll hope it not will be so difficult.
Sincerely!
Swedish Dragon
… could I ask you again to react to my very first post? I said that as far as whether the practices were evil or not, my answer was ‘do as ye will’. You said you could not agree. What do you say now? best NN
Sorry Nnonnth if you expected a short answer to this wery short question. I hope its not all to hard to follow my opinions in the following. I really try to explain what i think on a somewhat clear way but some of the thinking is perhaps new to myself to and I can’t really do so much more work on this, to make it clearer. I do not see this as an easy question and I have no answer like yes I see it like this or like that. Some of the following may not seem to be written in a logical way; I write the ideas spontaneously as they apear for me like in a conversation.
I do hope you are able to follow what I say in the following and I have no idea about if you find it as rubish or if you are agriing with me at the must part. But I hope it will lead to a development and a deeper understunding of what is going on here, beacause I’m not shure if this discusion have come to a level where it only is ridiculous or if its really important for bouth of us to continue beacase we feel theire is even more to it.
I’m anyway also glad that you gave me this opurtionity to continue and I’m wery open for whatever responses you may have so do please follow your own advise to do what you want and then I mean to continue this discussion if you want to and to stop if you feel it has come to an end and whatever other reaction you want to discuss.
But I expect at least an answer to this. But I’m also shure I will get one from u.
So nice reading hope it isn’t disturbing you to much:::::
This is the reasons for my opinion against the words “do what you want” according to evil actions
I can’t really agree about the use of evil practices at all. It’s beacase I belive evil practises will create evilness that harms others and in some sense harms back to the practioner. But this is if you are able to distinguish betwean evil and good practises. I do not think it’s so símple either theire might be other categories to use to discribe practises. What I mean is that evil is just a word. And theire might be light within darkness as I think Mickael wrote. And it may also be difficult for the practioner to see everything clearly. But ok if I go a litle bit your way if the person want to do it, then do it. Here I think we have the situation dealing with the problem of the meaning of what you really want. As I tried to explain to you earlier this is not an easy question; you may see different levels of wanting. For example again the pedofile. He may have an inner struggle withing himself part of him do want to have sex with children other parts of him see this as an wery evil action and are wery much ashamed about his lust and desires to be with the children. So what is the meaning of do what you want in this example. The answer is dependent on what I earlier cald different levels. It is of corse an all to simple model to speak about levels here. But I hope it illustrate something about the difficulties of this words “do what you want” The situation is completely different of coarse if the person realy wants do do evil actons and practises. I think if we mean by this that this is what the person really wants on his depest levels we have to ask ourselves why harm the word why harm the others why harm yourself. What kind of practises is this? Why call it practises at all. Maybe we shall call it just evilnes. Does it exist only evil persons and only good persons. I’m shure not. So we have still the problem of what is realy evilness? I think this questions and the answers to them all go far into philosophy and into what kind of believes you have about a persons inner self and about the meaning of evilness and the relation of this to other subjects as well. Why are theire evilness in the first place. Maybe as a antipole to goodness so we are able to distinguish beatwean them? The thing we call evil may of corse not be evil sean from another perpective and may do something good or necessary sean from another point of wiev.
So even though we may agree upon not using moral rules; we may altough distinguish betwean moral right action or wrong or evil actions. Beacase the taosits not want to follow rules this doesn’t mean I think they don’t mean you may do anything. You have to make some judgements of every action anyway and I belive this judgements are easier to ashive if you are in harmony with the forces with the tao with everything. So even though the taoist not like rules they still have ideals that they try to follow. Such ideals is to create balance and harmony in their bodys lifes and in the society as well. I do not think they belive in evilness as a way to live your life. And I do not think they belive evil practises creates harmony. Ruthlessness might create harmony in some cases though or other in some way positeve or desired effects, as we already have discussed. And maybe also evil practises but as I have said somethimes to follow what you really want if you want evilness if of coarse dangerous.
Its rather this way. People not in harmony tends to belive in evil actions maybe beacase they see so much of such things in theire lifes, so why shouldn’t they use the power of evilness themselves. They do what they think they want. But they may see later on that even though they were thinking this way it didn’t do them so much good in the long run. The power or other seamingly positive things they wantes to have so badly did have a wery bitter taste that they couldn’t get reed of. And maybe this evil actions is what they on some level believes they want to do or on some level they need to do, but they might even feel, know or suspect this isn’t what they really want but they do it anyway. Beacase they do not have the streangth to do what they really want or don’t think they have the possibility or don’t think it anyway will make theire lifes better.
But in another way of thinking the only thing you have the possibility to do is to do the thing you want at the level of understundíng you have reached. So do what you want may work in everycase. But to be sincere here we are talking about what you really really want and then you at least have the obligation to try your hardest to find out what it is. This you can do by trial and error. “I try to do what i belive is the thing I really want and then I see the consequenses and may have the possibility to change my way if I want”. This may be a prefered way of the yang people. But you have also the possibility to “think feel and imagine around the possibilites before you act” and then more clearly see what you realy want and try it afterwards and what you on the other side already on an inner plane have seen doesn’t work for you.
Phew3
Hello Dragon,
I won’t answer in detail, but I see what you are saying. Perhaps we can meet halfway by saying, “Do what you want if you are sure it’s what you really want”??? I suppose I still feel this is not right for me – but then I am getting a handle on what *I* want and maybe it’s not what YOU want!
It reminds me of the guy who directed the Lord Of The Rings movie. I think he spent a good 10 years on it. Many 17-hour days on set in those years. Some interviewer asked him, you must have been exhausted, did your energy never flag? He said, if it ever did, I just reminded myself – I am here because there is nothing else I would rather do in the world. So he knew what he really WANTED, and that he was doing it RIGHT NOW.
When you say this:
>>”I try to do what i belive is the thing I really want and then I see the consequenses and may have the possibility to change my way if I want”. This may be a prefered way of the yang people. But you have also the possibility to “think feel and imagine around the possibilites before you act” and then more clearly see what you realy want<< Of course I can't disagree. After all I have known of this site several months but I am still trying to decide whether to order any of Michael's stuff! Maybe he is now very pissed off! First I researched alot of Taoism and found interesting things. So I don't suddenly leap to anything automatically either, not if I feel it's important. The only thing I have to say - and I know I promised I would not mention the ego again - is that sometimes you think and think and still you cannot fathom what you really want. And that I think is the ego, because in fact you do know but it has hidden it. Then you really do need a flash of thunder and of suddenly knowing - at least I do. To wake you up. Also of course with the paedophiles - if he is struggling with the idea of it it means that he DOESN'T know what he wants! So even here, he can't do it. The moral implications of paedophilia we must save for another time... Anyway thankyou likewise for sticking with this one. best wishes and blessings to you, NN
Hello again Nnonnth
You write “- I am here because there is nothing else I would rather do in the world. So he knew what he really WANTED, and that he was doing it RIGHT NOW.”This is an example of what I mean by real power. Do you think this is important to and have you got any idea of how to reach there? In your life or in general for anybody!
What is this in your life?:”really do need a flash of thunder and of suddenly knowing”
It sounds so interesting to me.
Yes you mai insinuate something interesting here which I haven’t been taken into account earlier. By the way it seems to be an interesting book!
I will try to make a new subject of this or something similar in this chat forum.Sincerely Swedish Dragon
Dragon of Sweden –
>>This is an example of what I mean by real power. Do you think this is important to and have you got any idea of how to reach there? In your life or in general for anybody!<< IS IT important? Hell, YEAH! But will you throw your keyboard across the room if I say the answer of 'how to reach there' to me is - do what you WANT? The thing is, you *already* have this power. Everyone has. We all last a whole lifetime each. Everything we do can last that long as well if only we have the commitment(earth) and inspiration (fire). We must be balanced, so we can last consciously that long instead of just continuing in desultory fashion. How did the movie director reach there? He said I REALLY REALLY WANT to make this MOVIE! And he juiced himself and juiced himself on the possibility. What would it be like to see it on the screen? For everyone to see his vision? He meditated like this. Then he said - it will last ten years. But I can't live without doing it. So I will do it RIGHT NOW. But of course there is more to it. The Tao is completely everlasting, as they say, it has complete power always and in a way it is what we are seeking. Just be sure, be inspired, that you will find it because that is why you are here. You came here to find it. Everyone does. They don't all call it the same thing. "Truth is one but the sages call it by many names", said - oh, someone or other, I don't remember. [Take THAT Freeform!] The way you find is you start to look. And you look for what is really true to you. What you are seeking is causing you to seek. So say some Zen people. St Francis is even better - What You Are Looking For Is What Is Looking. Seek! Seek! Don't leave any stone unturned. Do you know Michael's history? He hobnobbed with the Lapland shamans. He met white Jews and he took them to meet black Jews. He trained with the Dalai Lama. Many years of yoga. Then suddenly he tried Taoism - he switched. He knew what he wanted. And now he is here. But he also does other tricky things that he seems reticent about so he is still learning! Ghandi - the same. He knew what he wanted. He saw it in his mind and he felt it in his heart. Then it went to his hands and he built it. He did not listen to anyone who said, no you can't. He did it. He did not stop until he did it. So it was done. Sometimes I am mean dragon to the people who say I can't I shouldn't I mustn't. It is because I know they don't believe in themselves. I don't want to encourage paedophilia! I know no paedophiles. I do know plenty of people who are stuck in boring jobs, boring marriages and boring lives, who are aching to do what they really want. They often gather together in groups to get drunk and complain that life is not what it should be. I believe life IS what it should be, if you do what you TRULY WANT. Yes people don't do it - but a spiritual seeker must do it. The fire you lack that leaves you cold will come when you BELIEVE in your own life. Something will happen - look out for it, perhaps this very minute! If everyone around you seems boring and content with rubbish - look elsewhere and keep looking! Never stop! They can be boring if they want, but spiritual seekers are never boring! (although ordinary people think they are sometimes...) That is why Jernej says - step up to the plate and be a demigod and don't be concerned with the couplings of the ordinary mortals! Something in you will say, when you see something that is right for you - YES THAT IS A PIECE OF IT. And in that moment ask yourself this - how do I know that? How do I know this is right? The piece in you that knows what you truly want spoke to you. And it told you THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT. THEN, you have the power! This is what I mean when I say, the sudden flash of light. Sudden but endless and endlessly beautiful beyond the measure of the human eye! THEN you will be a DRAGON! love NN
You write”IS IT important? Hell, YEAH! But will you throw your keyboard across the room if I say the answer of ‘how to reach there’ to me is – do what you WANT?”
I let my 100 lol:s echoe in my room and fuck the neigbours. Its in the midle of the night here.
I really enjoyed to read this in every part of it. Even though it had been wery nice to say to you I don’t agree with you so we could have another go even do just fro the pleasure to tease with you I couldn’t find anything.
Beeing a searcher myself, never have had so strong a feeling of doing really what I want as with keeping on with this practises. But also beliving they will help me to find what I really really want or my purpose with life. For the moment though wery much concerned with my health problem but as u said the things may be connected!
This conversasion has been a painful and upplifting experience in many ways and I’m shure you not are a boring pearson, on the contrary.
May you always have the ability to do what you want!
The Dragon from Sweden
>>Even though it had been wery nice to say to you I don’t agree with you so we could have another go even do just fro the pleasure to tease with you I couldn’t find anything.<< I sigh with relief my friend, but I'm sure one of us will find something to tease the other with again before long. >>This conversasion has been a painful and upplifting experience in many ways<< Um... thankyou! Seriously I have learned alot also. >>and I’m shure you not are a boring pearson, on the contrary.<< Likewise dude. Wish you luck, NN
On the contrary your posts are incisive and elicit productive debate! Oh I’ve been fine thanks Nnonnth. Rex
Hi Swedish Dragon,
You’re welcome! Here’s a story which parallels Nnonnth’s tale of a ninja master duffing someone up, its lifted from Sogyal Rinpoche’s ‘Tibetan Book of Living and Dying’:
“But masters are very different, and they can use all kinds of skillful means to provoke that shift of consciousness. Patrul Rinpoche hinmself was introduced to the nature of mind in a very different way, by a highly eccentric master called Do Khyentse. This is the oral tradition that I heard of this story.
Patrul Rinpoche had been doing an advanced practice of yoga and visualisation, and had become stuck; none of the mandalas of the deities would appear clearly in his mind. One day he came upon Do Khyentse, who had made a fire in the open and was sitting in front of it drinking tea. In Tibet when you see a master for whom you have deep devotion, traditionally you begin to prostrate your body on the ground as a mark of respect. As Patrul Rinpoche started prostrating from a distance, Do Khyentse spotted him and growled menacingly, “Hey, you old dog! If you are brave, then come over here!” Do Khyentse was an impressive master. He was like a samurai, with his long hair, his rakish clothes, and his passion for riding beautiful horses. As Patrul Rinpoche continued doing prostrations and began to approach closer, Do Khyentse, cursing him all the time, started to hurl pebbles at him, and gradually larger rocks and stones. When he finally came within reach, Do Khyentse started punching him and knocked him out altogether.
When Patrul Rinpoche came to, he was in an entirely different state of consciousness. The mandalas he had been trying so hard to visualise spontaneously manifested in front of him. Each of Do Khyentse’s curses and insults had destroyed the last remnants of Patrul Rinpoche’s conceptual mind, and each stone that hit him opened up the energy centres and subtle channels in his body. For two marveluis weeks the visions of the mandalas did not leave him.”Nice one – eh?
Rex
>>Nice one – eh?<< MUTHAFUCKA! I love that bit - "He was like a samurai, with his long hair, his rakish clothes, and his passion for riding beautiful horses"! Today he would wear Armani and drive a Ferrari?!?! Or a Harley maybe. This is the flipside of the serious and sincere post about the environment that I replied to above. When you opt out of society it is easy to live in it and it is even easy to get what you want from it - because you know you don't really want it! You can look like the samurai-about-town and at the same time be completely taking the piss out of the samurai-about-town. Nothing is what it *appears*. When you know that, you can *appear* any way you like. Any way is as good as any other. Are people expecting that, because you look like a samurai, you are a certain type of person? That is their problem! Are people expecting that, because you are called 'master', you must act a certain way? That is their problem! Now you have the capacity to teach them something and you have still not yet said anything - 'out loud' - because they can be shown where their problem is instantaneously. When people are surprised and confused their egos are scattered and new stuff can be put in. You can ask them to empty their cups, or maybe you can just knock the cup over! It becomes a game. I don't say seriousness and sincerity are a bad thing, but I do always remember what Oscar Wilde said - "All bad poetry is sincere". And he is right right right! Nowadays you need look no further than the birthday card industry! It is possible to speak meaningless ignorant rubbish with a huge sincerity. To say something meaningless using the sound of being meaningful. "I love you" is often said thus... And it is also possible to speak the truth with no sincerity at all. Did Do Khyentse punch and throw rocks 'sincerely'? He was insincere. The acting of hurting someone usually means you want to hurt them - when it is done sincerely, when you 'mean it'. He did nothing that meant anything at all - and yet the truth was told! I know that, just because all bad poetry is sincere, it does not mean that all sincere poetry is bad. You can indeed 'speak the truth sincerely'. That is what the gentleman who posted on environment and emotions is doing. But he might find (I hope his case is an exception) that maybe people do not listen, however sincere he becomes. Their cups are full of other things. They have many very very small cups (using freeform's idea here) and they are constantly rearranging them at a frightening rate. You can say - 'please, stop that for a second!' - but you can also just knock all the cups over. Then they are confused. When they do all the furious rearranging of cups, they all the time *think* they know what they are doing, and *think* with great confidence that eventually the rearranging will make them happy. But still, RIGHT NOW, they are MISERABLE! If when they are miserable they feel they 'know what they are doing', then when they are 'confused' they can start to be happy... When the master is hitting you, you are paying attention! And he is hitting you so as to say - here, I have mastered hitting you to such an extent that I can do it with complete insincerity! I can mean you no harm in doing it, on the contrary I can mean you immense GOOD! THAT is mastery. Throwing a punch or a rock has become completely divorced from the reflexive egotistical action that it is in the rest of us. How many of us can throw a punch lovingly? In how many of us will an act of violence not mean that we are being violent? THAT is mastery! (of one kind...) Thanks Rex! best NN
When a ‘normal’ person is hitting me, I pay attention too. We are our own masters and any person around me is an invitation for change. Every encounter can be an opportunity. It is all a matter of being humble and open to whatever is around you.
And btw when you know that a person is a master and he is slapping you, you know something needs to happen there, otherwise he wouldn’t slap you right! Just a matter of perception, when a master slaps you it is for the ‘good’, if a stupid fool slaps you you get pissed. No way… the fool can teach lots of things, depends on where you stand with your ego.
>>if a stupid fool slaps you you get pissed. No way… the fool can teach lots of things, depends on where you stand with your ego.<< You better hope this here fool doesn't put that to the test if we ever meet! Seriously, you are of course right. Most people do not perhaps have the sense to be sufficiently foolish. best NN
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