July 27, 2005 at 1:51 pm #6620
In the conversation between Spyrelix and Michael Winn, I understood the key difference between visualization and realization is that the Chi field is already strong and there. So you’re encapsulating something already there instead of purely ‘imagining’.
The question is when/how do you know you have it(the field, the juice)? Like the orbit, how much is energy, how much are you just becoming aware of the nerves going up and downt the spine.
How can quantify it? Is it possible. Through an aura that sticks out more? Through a feeling of vitality that lasts through the day. A psycological lessening of thoughts and feeling of connectedness. A time period which one has done the basics?
I’m asking how do we know we’ve gotten to first base?
MichaelJuly 27, 2005 at 4:14 pm #6621
Good question. Im not sure there are any verifiable answers. All this stuff were engaged in is more art than science, more feeling than facts. This doesnt mean its not real, just that its not particularly measurable by any that would be beyond reproach.
Is the practice working for you?
Yes then youre doing it right and using your heart mind to direct your energy body.
No then youre engaged in empty visualizations
I know, this is ridiculous. But what other options do you have? Ultimately it comes down to faith in a particular process and your own internal feeling as to whether something beneficial is happening to you.
Winns point seemed to be that preliminary activity involving focused movement, breath and even ritual would put your entire being (mind, body, energy body, shen, etc.) in a prepared state so that further meditative practices would happen properly. I suspect he would also say that once youve been practicing properly for a while, you are much more likely to be in that prepared state on a regular basis, or can slip into it much more easily.
I largely agree with that analysis, and also share your wish there was a more exact way to measure progress. But I dont think it exists.
My own view is that in the old days martial arts was a rough acid test for this sort of thing. I mean we can argue all day about who can move more chi but if my students can routinely kick your students asses then thats at least some concrete proof that my practice is better than yours. For a variety of reasons, I dont think that rough objective measure is available these days.July 27, 2005 at 4:28 pm #6623
While you’re on the subject, I’ve some related questions..
I’ve been trying to understand these vital paragraphs from Michael’s recent answers on this question:
-Color,sound, rhythm/breath, feeling, intention/shape – these are the five attributes covered in the Fundamentals for shaping the healing sounds using the five shen. You are reversing the flow of chi in fusion from the healing sounds, and need to give that instruction to all five phases simultaneously.
If you only activate one or two of them, i.e. the capacity to create a color and shape, you will only get a partial result. When you tap all five, you get a collective result that will override all resistance that is hidden within you. Then your power to change is maximized many times over a partial “head command” trying to boss the chi around, and encountering unconscioius resistance.
-it appears you are attached to believing that the visualization process begins in the head and is layered onto the body experience. This is the standard mind-body dualistic perception, the modern scientific view that the head generates our reality and is the “mind”. The Taoist notion of xin (heart-mind) is that the vital organ spirits create our reality – including what passes through the brain at the end of the creation process as thoughts, feelings, sensations. In this model, images can only be shaped AFTER you have the chi to shape it into an image.
What still puzzles me (btw, my apologies to anyone reading this in the hope of answers!!) is this:
If we learn a technique, we always appear to learn it verbally.
If we seek to ensure that we are communicating with all five phases, by simultaneously employing “Color,sound, rhythm/breath, feeling, intention/shape” how can it be other than a head command doing so?
In other words, unless we’ve already integrated the five shen, how can we communicate effectively with them? It’s like trying to lift a dustbin in which you are standing. Isn’t it?
If you get in the qigong state, either the process you want to happen is already happening, or you will have to impose on it from the part of you which remembers what it is you want, the head. No?
Sorry to be dense, but this seems really vital.
PS Is “Color,sound, rhythm/breath, feeling, intention/shape” a direct correspondence to liver, kidney, lung, heart, spleen?July 27, 2005 at 7:27 pm #6625
Michael will have to answer for himself but here’s my two cents’ worth.
Basically, I think you’re overthinking this.
I used to do some acting. In acting you memorize your lines and then go up on stage and recite them. You know where you’re going to move, when to cross the room, etc. You also understand the emotional content of the scene, what you want, how you’ll react, etc.
But to truly inhabit the piece, to live it, to make it real, you have to basically forget all that. Or, perhaps more accurately, learn it so well that your body just knows what to do and your mind can then shut off. I think dance and playing music are similar. Someone can be a technically proficient dancer or musician and still be “lifeless”.
I think what michael was saying in its simplest form is you have to get OTHER PARTS OF YOU involved in the process and not just rely on your head. In my opinion he defended his initial position to a level that was overly dogmatic (“I don’t teach visualizations”) but I dropped the semantic argument because I thought it irrelevant to the greater truth that was being discussed.
My view is that a “visualization” is any time you “see” an image with your inner eye. And I think this will always involve your cerebral cortex on some level. If michael or anyone else wants to argue that this is not the case . . . well, they are welcome but I think neither of us can really prove it.
My point is that your brain is always involved. Michael’s point is (I think) that your other organs are ALSO always involved (or should be) and — indeed — are actually what’s directing the brain. So, he might say, “let’s not focus on how the brain creates visualizations for us to follow and rather focus on ways to get the whole organism involved and to feel that whole involvement”.July 27, 2005 at 10:35 pm #6627
Yes, there are several ways to know. The first of which is knowing 🙂
1) Short of knowing and the other ways mentioned below, I found it helpful to learn I Ching.
2) There are verifiable common experiences realted to various HT formulas. I would think that one would rather practice, experience, then verify (if needed) instead of learning about what is “supposed” to happen and trying for that. Some things happen to some and not to others or they happen differently and out of sequence. Not something to get hung up on. Practice, practice, practice and when you need help ask the universe for it and then pay attention to what comes to you.
3) There are also verifiable universal experiences among traditions throughout the world as well that transcend culture, geographic location, etc.
4) Not sure that there is ever an end so it is OK to be right where you are practicing what you are practicing and we are still humans being no matter what level of attainment and we will all pass from the body into the great unknown.
MattJuly 28, 2005 at 1:42 am #6629
SustainedJuly 28, 2005 at 7:28 am #6631
All scripts are metaphorical.
They are describing the results.
There is shaolin maxim: don’t do what i do, study the why i do it.
Or sutra by Osho: Don’t strive for the ending … stay in the beginning.
The inner heart is that matters.
Then things are happening.
The magic of the life.
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