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Hello 🙂
Wendy and Pietro – what you say strikes a chord in me. Good encapsulation of the dynamics of relationships!
Personally, I find it uninspiring to only be ever involved with one person. I have no desire to be married or live with anyone (although I live happily with my flatmate!) – but I still very much enjoy the company of men. I suspect that my evolution will involve trying different types of relationship scenarios until I find the one that suits me. At this stage, I am sufficiently unclear on how all of this will pan out for me and so I am taking a time of rest away from relationships/associations until I am clearer within myself and then, by extension, with my partner(s).
I feel that the biggest issue that people confront is the idea of having multiple partners is this idea of not being able to love more than one person at a time or that, “if you love me and her then I am only getting 50% of your love” etc etc and that, probably more than the physical, is confronting to many people (male or female).
E.
You ask me an answer for the biggest problem on this planet…
at this very moment I am not in the mood for a long reply but willmy very short answer from womans side:
flirt with alpha (raising self confidence), have and raise your children with beta (stability) and have astral sex with meta (development)These questions of physical sex vs. shen sex are difficult. Having this physical body, do we learn best by engaging in physical sex? Or, does having a physical body amplify the attraction so much that shen sex can occur, something that is not possible for us when non-bodied?
For me, physical sex has always been so complicated. When I was young, I didn’t have enough earth energy to be with anyone. Now, my wife and I have talked about having outside partners, but both realize that it would tear at our relationship. And, our relationship (unfortunately sexless while my wife works through the wounds of being sexually abused as a very young child) is very precious to me.
Especially precious is the process of raising a child – a fruit of our sex. For me, raising him is so important to my growth and understanding of myself, of humanness, of the world. Raising a child is a rare and wonderful experience. Too many men miss that experience, off chasing sexual desire.
My sexual drives are still here and I allow them as shen sex, which is so clean, without the complications that would follow from an affair. My physical relations with my wife and son take priority now, in this life. Yes, I can have sad moments when I think about what I am missing. But, I realize then that I am sad because I am thinking, and so I shift from that to feeling, feeling what I want of her, internallizing it, allowing fucking inside in a kan and li form, and following it is at shifts and shifts and shifts. Shen sex often keeps going and going, better and better, through the dimensions– physical sex usually ends with a bit of a let down.
Perhaps in another life I will come in with a situation in which physical sex will be abundant and wonderful and harmonious with me. Or, maybe later in this life I will find myself to be a senior citizen PUA! Whatever life brings, bring it on!
Chris
PietroS,
i appreciate your reply. i haven’t just ignored the informations you’ve presented, and i don’t necessarily hold those assumptions as strongly as you might think. but it has been a challenge to find some integration between the spiritual and the biological, without negating either. what you’re saying here is helpful to me as it aids me in digesting complexities that have made me uncomfortable in the past, parts of myself i was not fully able to accept. perhaps you have sensed in me traces of this discomfort as they were expressed in my words.
on the other hand, i may look at the stars, but i also make eye contact with many people. it is a practice i began many years ago, when i would often approach strangers and invite them upon adventures. and i do sometimes meet girls who have a different set of priorities on earth than solely those of the biological interface. but nonetheless it is an important interface to fulfill in order feel complete as a human. and so i thank you for sharing, and challenging me to grow.
-christopher
i do value you pointing out those self-deceptions.
they developed in me largely out of confusion about how to puruse what i’ve experienced sprititually while at the same time living out my sexual desires. i do realize they are false, but i’m still in the process of undoing them. 🙂Thanks Plato for such a succinct summary of the male dilemma.
I asked my wife Joyce to read Pietro and Wendy’s postings above. Turns out she had already read – she reads widely, being a Gemini – articles from/about Dan Angelo. (I haven’t had time yet). She says guys pay him $5,000. grand to hang out in bars for a weekend and watch how he operates. And spawned a whole sub-industry of PUA workshops in bars from his students/competitors.
Her comment, based on her own study of NLP (neuro-linguistic programming):
“The PUA appraoch typifies the use of NLP for selfish manipulative ends. NLP is very effective, but at this level it raises ethical questions about the consequences of the manipulations. (Winn note: this gets into all the thorny questions Pietro raises about kids). It is one of the lower end applications of NLP. Mostly, it doesn’t really address or help men develop any long term relationship skills needed. And may keep them sidetracked from getting those skills as they chase after endless series of skirts.”
My view is that the PUA approach is true on one level that men need physical completion on. So in this sense Plato is right. The drive is not for physical pleasure though – its for the information that gets transmitted during sex, which I will address in a moment.
Pietro’s speculations on the New Marriage are hardly new, as he insinuates – other cultures have had multiple wife arrangements for millenia. He is really just talking about a variation on that, involving more liberated modern women. That already existed in one subculture in China, in Yunnan province, where a maternal society still rules and women choose multiple partners as they please and have the property rights.
All of this ignores the underlying question: where does sex drive come from? Only by answering that question as an experience can one complete it as an experience. The answer is simple: it doesn’t come from DNA, it comes from the soul. The soul prints out the DNA to express it self. To say the DNA runs our sex life is like saying the English alphabet controls our thoughts or speech. Yes, it offers a shape and a mode of expression – but there are other alphabets, and languages that don’t even use alphabets but pictures (Chinese). So DNA is plastic, just a language, thta is why scientists can snip it and shape it – but at the peril of not knowing what the underlying consequences are.
Does the alphabet control our speech, or do we control the alphabet in order to express something deeper?
DNA is the same.Or there is the option – you can learn the energetic alphabet of the soul – more difficult than just learning NLP/PUA speak, but not impossible. The male need to externalize the sex drive is strong, and is certainly the easiest path for most men. Most men will not bother to learn the energetic language, and thus fall back into the PUA club or another club of their own invention that halfway solves their dilemma.
Meta sex does not preclude physical sex – it just posits that if you are going togo to the bother of having sex with someone and take responsibility for the consequences of it on emotional and other levels – then you need to determine if the soul really needs and wants it. Otherwise you are just a rabbit acting out a program repetititvely, you are not merged with the real driver of the sexual desire, the soul.
Some souls may demand multiple relations, some may want to be celebate, some may be serially monagamous, there is infinite variety in the human experiment at the soul level, while it resolves the fundamental problem of the loss of yuan chi that occured at the initial soul-splitting into male and female. So that is the only criteria that I would hold – am I harvesting what my soul needs, and am I able to hold the information in a usable form internally?
Smiling to the soul of your gonads,
Michaellastly, though, i do not feel the fact that such assumptions are generally false discounts what i was saying previously, that the PUA tactics don’t seem to address the soul level, and the relationships between biological and soul level. i admit i have a lot to learn about these connections. the PUA material seems to be pretty accurate in terms of the domain of its own self-defined goals, but i don’t seem long-term fulfillment happening on that level… more a like a loop repeating itself over and over again until you get tired and die. nowhere is it addressed where these goals comes from, and what their actual meaning is, aside from just relegating it to the realm of DNA. likewise, suppose you go out and pick up women, rouse their passions so they sleep with you, etc. but what of the deeper effect this is having on the soul level, for both you and them, in the unfolding of destiny? this seems basically ignored. i don’t see a social transformation of the gender rift as possibile until we can address both the bio level and the soul level together at once.
It is clear that one can not stay unchanged once there is a deep soul connection (human-human, human-larger intelligence) that is why many fail because they fear the power arising from such bond. You can not stay unchanged when the forces combine.
We prefer to protect what is, we prefer to hold on to what we know… what if I put my life, my soul in your hands, can we handle so much surrendering of another being, are we worthy to accept such an offering, are we able to take care of so much trust? That is pretty scarry isn’t it.
On the path of learning, we already had our share of pain, we caused pain to others and we closed ourselves out of protection as we don’t want to be hurt again.
The path to our most inner self is protected with doors and we hope that that one person, that one being, that one divine soul can reach that most inner realm, reaching right in the heart of our heart. We want that, we all want that to happen, as it is our right to be fully part of the divine.Pietro,
IF the Healing Dao is threatened by the PUA talk you have given, it is only because the Healing Dao built its entire audience on the implicit lie that learning some crazy Taoist sexual skills are the key to success with women. LOL!
-Plato
Pietro,
No need to feel I was attacking you or PU – I was simply pointing out the limitations in the light of questions raised about its relation to spiritual development. I’m puzzled as to why you think I might have economic interests at stake in this discussion.I support people having sex for all kinds of reasons that may not appear to be spiritual initially. Even a one night stand can be liberating and educational.
You think you are just relieving a sexually physical itch. You explore the itch, and it leads you somewhere else. You can start at the jing level of attraction – which is pure body attraction and sharing that, and slowly work your way up. That is the way most men do it. Its the PU way as well. I started that way, until it became too limiting.
or you can start at the shen level of attraction and work your way down into the jing level. Or dig at both ends of the tunnel simultaneously, if you are lucky.
But eventually, you work your way past the hormone/DNA level of programming. The lust wears off and then you are in therapy mode, peeling off the layers of the personality built around sexual polarity. PU might well be a great tool for some to peel off those initial layers more quickly, strip away the defenses and illusions people have about sex.
I much prefer people to have real sex than fantasies about it – as long as they take responsibility for their actions, no different than other areas of life. There are no escaping consequences of actions, that is why we have free will and bodies, to give that process definition. With sex, the responsiblities extend to issues of disease, to emotional processes that demand completion, to honesty in intentions, to effects on social relations, to economic issues and issues of child raising. Sex is LOADED with responsibilty, unless you go numb.
Once you have sex, you are into the core channel of someone else’s body, and the soul is watching, waiting to see if the other half of the mirror recognizes itself at that moment. The moment of mutual recognition is love, it is what stabilizes the neutral ground between the male and female poles. Are you brave enough – or aware enough – to seize that moment and serve the mutual evolution of your souls?
It is one thing to keep eye contact during the seduction phase. It is another to stay in soul contract. But that requires self-cultivation. And it is hard to get two people at the same level and grow at more or elss similar rates, in the same direction. That is why sexual relationships are the toughest spiritual path.
I don’t believe any one person can offer another total completion. I have had many dozens and dozens of lovers in my lifetime – but only a handful rate as conscious soul contacts, and those came as I cultivated myself more and awoke to who I was. Then I could see who others were, beneath the body and personality.
Those became part of my integration, my alchemical vessel – the others were mostly a study in rabbitry, or lessons in what I didn’t want/need.So please don’t think I am trying to shut down your PU offering – I haven’t studied it deeply, I am sure there are all lkinds of people exploring it on all kinds of levels. I appreciate your sharing your views and stimulating a lot of thought on a tough topic. If it helped you find your “spine” in your relationships, I say bravo.
love, chi, blessings,
michaelI had a friend that was into DeAngelo. White guy, had no problem getting girls just did not like how he got them. I do not think the cds where any help. As you can not buy confidence or self acceptance. I find most of this goes back to motive as Michael was talking about. There are parts of the self that will never be satisfied by how much or what type of sex, food, or shelter we get, these parts of our self are not given what they need so they look for it through the poor body. This is a beautiful state for porn companies, food companies, shot realy most companies. Most will abuse there body and waste there present trying to fill this endless void. Luckly I find it gets bord for the most part hopefully it has not done to much damage by then. I have always seen that there is a women for anytype of man for the most part you just have to be your self. Have the confidence to be your self who ever you are at that time. You can always spot a fish out of water. The nerd that wants to be the football star-sex stud, same goes on with the women. I saw a thing on tv where ICE-T was giving a lecture at Harvard on pimpin, its funny they should have gotten Hugh Hefner(that gets into a whole different topic). Again I hope every one finds joy, acceptance, and spontaneity.
“If you give some one your heart then you will have nothing to love them with.” I forget where I got this line maby toltec.
No relationship is a mistake even if it drians our energy or you abuse your body. I was just pointing out what I see happening. Where I am in my life I can not call any part of my life a mistake as it led me to now. 🙂
Plato, you always seem to see lies and deceipt, don’t project your pain onto THE Healing Dao. THE Healing Dao are individuals who TRY, at least try to do their very best to change. Nobody claims to be perfect and if for instance it happens people end up in bed together is that a crime? I only see it as part of a process…and WE are responsible for our actions not THE Healing Dao, or want you suggest THE Healing Tao made you do it!
Some people like to make a big poeha out of it, pointing their ten fingers at others, and scream see, see, they are doing IT
Those who scream the hardest need to dig the deepest.
Keep digging my dear friend, I still hold your hand and support you whole the way into the deepest darkest hole of existance.
Yours
WendyI can not speak for the rest of the world population but I will try to answer from my 25 years of joggling with marriage and personal development.
Every couple needs to set up its own rules but perhaps there is at least one rule that overrules any other if you want to keep on growing in a spiritual way.
What I will write down is a very short conclusion which in reality has much more angles and reasons why we did what we did.I found honesty as the most important one.
In the moments I was dishonest to my partner it felt like a darkness which prevented me from evolving. I had affairs with others while my partner had no clue what so ever, I did not tell him, one: because I felt I would hurt him too much and two: because it would undermine my comfortable situation. For a long time I carried this secret inside of me and it became a darkness that took away my happiness. I asked myself how to get out of this because I was very clear within I could not live with this much longer, I did not plan to die having this burden in my heart….
So I learned the hard way that dishonesty is a black dark heavy anchor. The lie was ultimately more an issue than the fact of having affairs.Another important thing in a relationship is that both partners have the ultimate wish to help the other in their process.
My partner does not cultivate anything, my path is very very different. I do not force him to do something, he is not making comments on mine, contrary we listen to each other and talk about what we feel about it without judgement.
Our wish is to see each other happy even it is something what we personally don’t really like.
Putting aside our personal smallness is one of our greatest strengths as a couple.
But it has to go both ways. We do not sacrifice ourself for the other, we try to see what helps the other, what I or he is in need of on that moment of life.
And that even can be that we seperate for awhile or even entirly if that serves the other in growing.
I encouraged him to take a step in the wide world, to take off for awhile from home and family, to feel how it is to be himself because he is ‘suffering’ from too much responsability. It is very clear that this action is not serving me at all because it can turn out that he is realizing things which will conclude in seperation BUT I can not see him unhappy, his daily struggle, the burden of wife, children, work and especially his personal feeling of not being good enough, lack of self worth and ultimately his lack of self love is reason enough to help him to find it. Clearly after 25 years of marriage he is not finding it here, so I encourage him to proceed his personal quest somewhere else. I nearly have to throw him out of the house because his responsability is preventing him from taking action. Even the children encourage him to do it, they are raised in this way and they understand that going away does not mean the end of life but can be the beginning of something inspiring new. Making serious plans for it I see how it helps him to feel more confident and helps him in a way 25 years of marriage could not do.Clearly for every person other actions are needed, there are no general rules other than the universal ones.
Honesty, courage and openness are my three basic rules.I doubt there is anyone on this board who practices Healing Tao methods that feels threatened by PUA. This is your projection; perhaps this is a sample of the PUA technique to put someone on the defensive?
Your point is totally misdirected in any case. I have never written nor seen published in any Healing Tao literature that the Taoist method has the function of helping men to get laid.
Quite the Opposite. It is focused on helping men and women to manage their sexual energy in the first case INDEPENDENT of any relation, so that one is NOT DEPENDENT ON THE CHASE. And you are not really “sublimating sex drive into spiritual” as you suggested earlier. You are not stopping the sexual process at all, you are cosmicizing it in order to amplify the third force that lies unclaimed between men and women.
In the second case, there are Taoist bedroom arts aimed at improving the relationships that one does have by making the sexual dynamic conscious and something that can be used to harmonize the relationship. But this assumes you have developed the social skill to engage a relationship; it doesn’t advise on how to initiate it.
Yes, there is the possibility for the Taoist information to be used unethically, i.e. vampirism of unsuspecting sex partner’s energy, but that is already happening between men and women anyway (as Max is fond of pointing out, men are usually on the short end of that stick since they are sexually more dumb). So any karma taken on from these practices lies entirely with the individual – not the Healing Tao, or their Taoist forbears in China.
But I appreciate your raising the issue so it could be clarified.
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