February 19, 2011 at 5:43 pm #36737February 20, 2011 at 2:53 am #36738
The literal translation of the Chinese characters means “beyond limit”, or “without limit”.
Of course, by its very nature, there is no definition in words that could define it…it is by its nature undefinable!
An indirect way of describing it would be a field of neutral consciousness/energy/matter that is pure potential.February 22, 2011 at 9:18 pm #36740
Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality by Charles L’uk has Wu Ji translated as Ultimateless and Tai Ji as Ultimate.
To singing ocean I ask, do you think that Wu Ji = Yuan Qi, I ask this because you say it is neutral and that is how Yuan Chi is usually described, yet Yuan Qi is also usually associated with Tai Ji, as the One that came out of the Dao.February 22, 2011 at 9:31 pm #36742
Yes, I think they are the same. I think that Wu Ji = Tai Ji, but from another perspective.
This paragraph is theoretical, and should not be taken to be confounding on the next one. In Daoist alchemy males seek to turn their body into Pure Yang, yet they do this by cultivating Yuan Qi. Yet females, according to Paulino Luna, seek to turn their body into Pure Yin. Yet both realize Dao. Ultimately there is only one Dao. So not only does Wu Ji = Tai Ji, but Pure Yin Qi = Pure Yang Qi = Yuan Qi.
That was so theoretical, if an advanced alchemist needs to dissolve it, please do. I almost could have written it in question format.
On to a more grounded answer, in the Heart Sutra (Buddhist, but please don’t stop reading) it says that Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form. So they may be, like I said at the top, the same but from another perspective. This is also like in Tantric Buddhism how Emptiness in seen as the same as their teaching on Interdependent Origination, which is how “things” rise and fall. Form and Emptiness are inseperable.
Does it resonate with You?
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/heartsutra.htmlFebruary 22, 2011 at 9:32 pm #36744February 23, 2011 at 4:53 am #36746
That which lies before, beneath, behind, and beyond
the impenetrable Dao, if the impenetrable Dao were
to be penetrated.
SFebruary 23, 2011 at 5:02 am #36748
>>>In Daoist alchemy males seek to turn their body into Pure Yang,
>>>yet they do this by cultivating Yuan Qi. Yet females,
>>>according to Paulino Luna, seek to turn their body into Pure Yin.
>>>Yet both realize Dao. Ultimately there is only one Dao.
>>>So not only does Wu Ji = Tai Ji, but Pure Yin Qi = Pure Yang Qi = Yuan Qi.
>>>That was so theoretical, if an advanced alchemist needs to
>>>dissolve it, please do. I almost could have written it in
Not my understanding of Daoist alchemy, actually quite the opposite.
Goal is to build what you *lack*, i.e. if mostly yang then build yin,
and vice versa. This is the goal of partnered relationships as
well as internal alchemy training. Then as these come into
balance, you marry them sexually, and give birth to yuan, which
acts as a glue to seal these two halves together. Ultimate goal
is create a construct of 50-50 yin-yang, glued and sealed
together by yuan. Created construct is self-sustaining and
does not die, and is a unification, a unification in a stepping
stone to unifying with the Dao itself.
StevenFebruary 24, 2011 at 1:54 am #36750
Thanks for that different view, Steven. What are your thoughts then about people talking about transforming into Pure Yang? Are these just multiple paths within the larger scope of Dao alchemy?
And, to be picky:
“a unification in a stepping stone to unifying with the Dao itself”
Do you not see the process of Dao alchemy to be Dao itself? Your explanation actually seems to support that idea more than my Pure Yin/Pure Yang one did, I think.
RyanFebruary 24, 2011 at 2:10 am #36752
in my opinion, to experience Wu Ji is to experience the Primordial, and since there is only one Dao, an experience of Wu Ji is the purest experience of Dao, and again with the Tantra, a Yin-Yang symbol would also symbolize the Wu Ji and the Dao. Also read the last paragraph on this page to see get an idea what I’m talking about:
Li Daochun relates these stages to the passage of the Daode jing that states: “The Dao generates the One, the One generates the Two, the Two generate the Three, the Three generate the ten thousand things.” According to this passage, the Dao first generates Oneness, which harbors the complementary principles of Yin and Yang. After Yin and Yang differentiate from each other, they rejoin and generate the “Three,” which represents the One at the level of the particular entities. The “ten thousand things” are the totality of the entities produced by the continuous reiteration of this process. In Li Daochun’s explication, the three stages of the neidan practice consist in reverting from the “ten thousand things” to Emptiness, or the Dao. In this way, the gradual process that characterizes internal alchemy as a practice is equivalent to the instantaneous realization of the non-duality of the Absolute and the relative.
The Tantric viewpoint is at the end
In Dzogchen it has been said that there is no Rigpa (Primordial Awareness) outside of the Four Elements. Much to contemplate.
(wrote this today)
The story of how the Four Elements came to be is that first there was the Akasha (typically referred to as the Fifth Element in the west, like Ether, Spirit). Then from the Akasha came Fire. Then from the Akasha came Water. Then from the Akasha came Air. Then, from the interaction of these, came Earth. Yet looking again at the Dzogchen sentence I wrote, it is saying that there is no Primordial Awareness outside of the *Four Elements*. So they’re one, it’s the same.
I don’t think that Akasha and Rigpa are exactly interchangable terms, but I think you get what I’m saying.February 24, 2011 at 3:23 am #36754
>>>What are your thoughts then about people
>>>talking about transforming into Pure Yang?
To me, this is a fantasy.
Yin-yang is a dipole, like a magnet.
You can’t have just a north pole to a magnet.
Besides, within the sea of yang is a seed of yin,
and conversely (this is the meaning of the Taiji symbol).
They are inseparable.
Life is the dynamism of yin-yang pulsation.
Anyone who tries to inhale only (or resp. exhale only) is
not going to get very far with that attempt. 😉
>>>And, to be picky:
>>>”a unification in a stepping stone to
>>>unifying with the Dao itself”
>>>Do you not see the process of Dao alchemy to be Dao itself?
The problem with the word Dao, is that it is used in many
ways and you have to pay attention to context. In one sense,
all springs from Dao and is inseparable from it, so all is Dao.
But “unifying with the Dao”, “attaining the Dao”, etc., are
all colloquisms meant to imply the spiritual achievement
of full realization . . . the complete dissolution of any
friction between “what you want” and “what is”.
In short, my comment was meant to highlight the full extension
of connectedness beyond the level of just the personal self.
StevenFebruary 25, 2011 at 2:55 am #36756
Been busy lately, will answer the other post soon.
My understanding of the idea of pure yang is that it is a corruption of the yuan qi concept. possibly influenced by the confucian ideas of hierarchy, or just another metaphorical way of speech used in the alchemical texts, or maybe another way to say “cultivated spirit given substance” for lack of a better way to say it.
The goal of daoist alchemy is to cultivate neutral qi, and then give it substance by cooking it with jing and shen. Really it all happens at once, but the process of rooting the neutral force permanently into this plane of physical vibration through cultivation: “Giving substance to spirit”, is the key aspect of cultivation (in my opinion).February 26, 2011 at 1:03 pm #36758
I don’t speak Chinese but in Japanese JI (極 GOKU/KYOKU/KIWA-meru)
would generally be translated in English as extreme or extremely.
極道者 (GOKUdousha)-a person on the extreme path (tao)
was used pre-Meiji to describe someone who cultivates Buddhism
to the extreme as in for enlightenment or to describe someone
who has reached the state of enlightenment.
極道 (GOKUdou)-the extreme path (tao)
the above was later changed for another name of the yakuza
(Japanese mafia)who have extreme values in the earthly realm
re: money, relationships,etc… compared to the regular citizen
The extreme change in usage of the above word GOKUdou, would be described
as 極端 KYOKUtan, meaning to swing from one extreme side to the other. The
difference between the temperatures at noon in the desert compared
to midnight would also be described as 極端 KYOKUtan, as well as a person
who has strong emotional swings. A person who would be described as having
a negative mental attitude is 消極的 (shoKYOKUteki) which translates to
extinguish at an extreme (such as extinguish the heart fire).
When used as a verb 極める reads as KIWA-meru and would be used to describe
someone who goes to the extreme in quality of his/her profession. It
would very often be used to describe a tradesperson who is considered to
be at the highest level. Many Japanese cooks are described this way who
go to unimaginable lengths in technique to create an unequaled quality.
(and my personal experience is when you say to one of these people, wow
you have 極めています (KIWA-meteimasu / you have pushed to the extreme)they
will without fail look at you and say that there is no end.)
My personal take would be that when you add 無 (WU in Chinese or MU in Japanese)
to 極 (JI in Chinese or GOKU in Japanese)
無極 would mean without extremes. Being without extremes would mean that it
is the center.
Being the center it would of course mean without limit and being the center
無極 would be both limitless and endless.
I think that a lot of the meanings that translate as the end
come from references to the north pole 北極 (hoKYOKU) which is the end of the earthly north.
AdelFebruary 26, 2011 at 8:12 pm #36760
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