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November 28, 2005 at 10:37 pm #8693thelernerParticipant
It shouldn’t be such rocket science to authenticate. Not much more then go to bed and how many fingers am I holding behind my back.
In his old book LaBerge(sp) Lucid Dreaming, he found people who said they could astral travel were under testing in a lucid dream state. I read one astral travel book a long time ago, where the author (one of the Moss’s?) said to leave a playing card out face up w/out looking at it. See it astrally, then compare it when you wake up. Maddeningly he didn’t say if HE could do it, or how often if he did he was right.
A while back I found a hard core group of dreamers that would try to get together astrally, and write down there accounts. It seemed from there writing it was hit or miss. But I admire the trying and use of controlled feedback.
Its so much easier to do things if you know they can be done. When dealing w/ phenomena of the mind its so easy to fool oneself. There are great benefits to Lucid dreams.
It just seems to me it shouldn’t be so hard to find evidence. If you could pick it up by reading a book and diligent practice, I’d think it would open the door real acceptance of Psi stuff.
This site is a gold mine of strange dedicated people. I’d expect someone to stand up and type, Its no biggie, I do it every night.
Peace
Michael
November 29, 2005 at 6:49 am #8695NnonnthParticipantHeya Michael –
>>It shouldn’t be such rocket science to authenticate. Not much more then go to bed and how many fingers am I holding behind my back.<< Oh man! I see what you mean. I can answer you pretty well. I had involuntary OBEs for a while, and now I can get out deliberately, but it's not nearly as simple as you'd think and I'm still a bit shaky - however I have learned alot about it. IT IS DEFINITELY POSSIBLE. But more about this below. Firstly, it takes alot of practice to do *well*. That's why it's not immediately possible to authenticate like you say. In the words of Draja Mickaharic - "The projecting people must also be able to use their sensory organs at the astral level. Just as children do not automatically understand how to use their sensory organs at birth, students must learn to operate in this new non-physical environment." ['Practice of Magic']. It may seem like a lame excuse, but I can totally vouch for the truth of this. At first it's very weird and you can't trust your... ?eyes? And not only that, moving around is just as difficult as it would be for a tiny kid also. You have to master your mind in all sorts of new ways. Ever see a kid learning to walk? It takes that long to learn! (at least for me). The first time I did it, it was the shortest OBE of all time - I found myself on the ceiling and thought "My body is back down there somewhere" - and WHUMP! I was back in it. It takes time to get used to the fact that you go where your thoughts go. I believe that some studies have been done to try to authenticate such things, by means of the blind tests you're talking about - I'll try and find out who did them for you if you want - but the projectors were not necessarily that experienced. No more than a person who had just "opened their orbit" for the 1st time would *suddenly* be far healthier and more grounded, does a novice projector *suddenly* know how many fingers you're holding up! Different projectors will say they saw different things and it takes alot of practice to use your senses to see what is there rather than an interpretation of it. However it CAN be done - I have that from people I trust. Secondly, as you say, it is easy to be deluded *even when* you really are projecting. This is hard to explain... when you get out you know you're out and you know you're awake and not dreaming. Fine, well and good. But you aren't necessarily *quite* in the "real world"! The place you go when you project is like the "astral root substance" of reality - it shows all sorts of subtle differences - doors in wrong places, different furniture etc. To actually interact with the real world from the astral takes time. But it's fun to learn... only slow. I could say alot more about this if you like. I HEARTILY recommend a read of the books I mentioned before. You will certainly be convinced it is possible after you read them - perhaps especially the one by Peterson, because he spends alot of time on all the idiotic things he got wrong! Trying to re-enter his body and finding himself back-to-front for example. And his exercises really work, especially if you have alot of chi available from doing other stuff. I would love to answer any more questions you have if the above's not clear. But I will just repeat: IT IS POSSIBLE! It's very different from lucid dreaming, impossible to mistake for any kind of dream. However, like so much of this spirity stuff, it isn't as cut-and-dried and easy to prove as I'd like it to be. One day maybe I'll be good enough to prove it to the world! But that's a way off. Oh yeah, one more thing: many people have already done it but buried the memory because it can be traumatic or can be triggered by trauma, to exit your body. That was the case with me, now my memories are coming back. To do it consciously is more difficult than involuntarily and at the beginning not necessarily easy because, fundamentally, you are mimicking the death process. It is not uncommon to think you are dying and suddenly change your mind about doing it halfway through! Also not uncommon to hear voices commanding you to stop, see threatening monsters, etc. But it's all illusory. best, NN
November 29, 2005 at 12:22 pm #8697.freeform.ParticipantHi NN.
I’ve only really had a couple of (involuntary) experiences… one of which was on a night train in thailand, and i think was similar to your experience: I got up, checked my watch – the numbers looked scrambled – so tried to turn the light on, which wouldn’t turn on, then realised i was still asleep and imediately I was shot back into my own body.
I’ve got a few questions: what is the impact on your energy level after doing this? Is there anyway to ‘cultivate’ in asteral form? Can you go (in this astral form) to specific ‘power-points’ around the world to charge your energy body?
feel free to answer only the questions that you’re interested in answering.
thanks!
all the best
.f.November 29, 2005 at 12:46 pm #8699NnonnthParticipantBloody hell, .freeform, those are insanely good questions! Why couldn’t you ask something I had a hope of answering??? They all interest me but to be quite honest I have no idea what the answers are really…
>>what is the impact on your energy level after doing this?<< Well I think it depends what you get up to whilst you're out there. I know some people who feel tired after but I haven't found that.... I do think though that separating and re-integrating the bodies can be good for their connections and so on. Like a distillation, I think. I don't lose any energy doing it. >>Is there anyway to ‘cultivate’ in asteral form?<< The reason I can't really answer that is that I don't know much about Taoist cultivation (which will change after I order some of Michael's goodies!), and I really come from a magical perspective. Many magicians, of whom I am one, regard the process as a cultivation in itself. The 1st level is learning to be very solid in the physical world, in your energy body, and go any distance from your physical body. This strengthens you in many ways - I'm sure you can see that, since strengthening the energy body is something Taoists often talk about. The next is that you go higher after that, to the astral worlds and higher still, and what you meet there, provided you can reintegrate the experience when you come back, is in itself a means of spiritual growth. Conversation with a high entity is like swapping chi with it. I must add that you can also have "bad trips". I'm taking a break from projection now and planning to work purely on prayer, qigong (if I like it) and my character/personality, because paradoxically I feel the need to be much more grounded before I can safely take off. I haven't had any bad experiences - it's just that I realise if one is well-balanced and the mind is under perfect control one will accomplish alot more. I've had alot of such experiences, where I went too fast at the beginning and then realised I had to backtrack a little before proceeding. >>Can you go (in this astral form) to specific ‘power-points’ around the world to charge your energy body?<< You probably could, as well as many places NOT around the world too of course. I've never tried it yet. best NN
November 29, 2005 at 1:24 pm #8701thelernerParticipantThats what I was looking for. Any other OBEr’s out there? Comments?
I’ll check out those books. I do think dream/night practice is ultimately one of the major studies for energy work.
Michael
November 29, 2005 at 1:45 pm #8703NnonnthParticipantHeya Michael –
>>I’ll check out those books.<< I know you'll get a kick out of them. >>I do think dream/night practice is ultimately one of the major studies for energy work.<< Funny thing is, I don't consider OBEs dreamwork at all and always do it in the day really - when I deliberately do it. The state of OBE is not like dreaming at all. You are just the same self as you are when awake. best NN
November 29, 2005 at 3:25 pm #8705farooqParticipantHi Everyone,
After I read Robert Bruce’s book, i had an obe.
just before going out, i heard ‘voices’ like on a badly tuned radio, and then i was on a different plane…..
anyhoo, i just was curious to see if i could do it.
Spiritual cultivation is more important for me so i just let it go.
Michael Winn’s comments on astral travel is hilarious: “…its like bad late night tv”
btw its good to see such thoughtful disussions on here again
welcome aboard to all you new posters:0)
peace and smiles
November 29, 2005 at 3:29 pm #8707NnonnthParticipantHeya Farooq,
>>just before going out, i heard ‘voices’ like on a badly tuned radio, and then i was on a different plane…..<< Hearing those voices is very common I'm told. >>Michael Winn’s comments on astral travel is hilarious: “…its like bad late night tv”<< Only kind worth watching! best NN
November 29, 2005 at 5:15 pm #8709PietroParticipantThis thread is getting interesting. As the whole board.
yes, it is definitly possible to cultivate while out of the body and in dreams. Know many people that do it (both in dreams, lucid dreams & energetic body). I see no reason why you shouldn’t be able to do it also in the yang body. BTW you seem quite ok with taoist terms, in any case we call the energetic body that is dense enough to be able to interact with the world: yang body. I remember M.Chia saying something about spending lots of time teaching the Tai Ji form to your spiritual body.
Something you might want to add to your repertoire:
some people take drugs to have spiritual experiences. Some people consider this as a way to have fake experiences. So if you see Jesus while taking a peyote drug. Than probably no immortal have talked to you, but you got tricked by your senses/mind. Now if you do very strict diets/fasting. You are often activating similar molecules in your body. One of them is released from the surrenal when they fire. If your surrenal fire few times and then they rest, the molecule is reabsorbed. But if, for example, you avoid sleeping for a long period (days), eventually your body will have to start firing your surrenal to keep you awake. And the protein would not have the time to be reabsorbed and would start to build up. Now this protein (for what I know) acts in a similar way to LSD. SO people who stay awake for a long time have often trips and visions. (See native americans & C.). Now the validity of those experiences is directly linked to what you consider the validity of a spiritual path that would use external substances. If you see Jesus after 4 days of staying awake. Or you see Jesus after ingesting a fungi, the process that happened in the brain is very similar.In Taoism (at least as I learn and practice it) we try to make the body really healthy. So we don’t get tricked into seeing something that is not really there. Then if we see an immortal we know it was not a trick of the biochemistry of our mind.
Seemed similar to your desire to get more grounded.
A question, when you speak about going ‘higher’ you mean higher as farther away from the center of the earth or higher as toward emotions-mental-shen?
November 29, 2005 at 6:35 pm #8711.freeform.ParticipantGreat, thanks for your answers!
I appreciate the way you answered from your own personal experience, many times ppl get into theories and ideas that they, themselves, havent tried before.
I have also experiemnted with Magick (I noticed you mentioned Jason Newcombe – I also really like Pill Farber).
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“I realise if one is well-balanced and the mind is under perfect control one will accomplish alot more.”
————————————————————————–That is why I’m now mainly involved in Taoist Alchemy, since I find that balance and groundedness is so implicit in its teaching (also I find the Taoist model a lot more elegant than the mishmash that is western magick – ofcourse this has its own charm.) I am however very pragmatic (one, very valuable thing I’ve learnt from magick) and have no problem in adapting techniques and ideas from all kinds of models and belief systems as long as they are usefull and lead to further more refined balance.
Although I dont post much here, I often lurk, and am already really enjoying your posts, so keep it up :0)
all the best
.fNovember 29, 2005 at 7:55 pm #8713shabdParticipanthere’s mine:
I once woke up in the morning, stumbled into the bathroom, started brushing my teeth and when I looked into the mirror there was absolutely no image in the mirror! I was so shocked – and woke up with a big jolt. – On the edge of a “bad trip” I guess heh?
People say OBE is often triggered when you are very fatigued and in bad shape, which I was definately during the time it happend.shabd
November 29, 2005 at 9:14 pm #8715NnonnthParticipantHey .f –
>>I appreciate the way you answered from your own personal experience, many times ppl get into theories and ideas that they, themselves, havent tried before<< That has its place too, but I think the problem is they start to think that by hearing of and studying about this technique they've *sort of* already *kind of* mastered it... then you find out if you probe they haven't got around to actually learning it yet. >>since I find that balance and groundedness is so implicit in its teaching<< Yeah that's why I'm here too. >>I also really like Pill Farber<< Remind me, I'm drawing a blank on that name. I also love Jan Fries very much, and Draja Mickaharic. best NN
November 29, 2005 at 9:25 pm #8717NnonnthParticipantHeya Shabd –
>>I once woke up in the morning, stumbled into the bathroom, started brushing my teeth and when I looked into the mirror there was absolutely no image in the mirror!<< Holy shit!!! That one I've *never* heard before... >>On the edge of a “bad trip” I guess heh?<< Well suppose so... on reflection though, if you'd *known* you were OB it would've been more interesting than shocking. With "bad trips" I mean more like where people jet off to find the realms of the gods and instead get eaten by monsters. Some of the "lower levels" are apparently very unpleasant but alas! - I can only give hearsay on them yet and am not anxious to know more... >>People say OBE is often triggered when you are very fatigued and in bad shape, which I was definately during the time it happend.<< That's true but only of unintentional OBE. I find you have to be in excellent shape, energetically speaking, to do it deliberately. best NN
November 29, 2005 at 9:48 pm #8719.freeform.Participant>”I’m drawing a blank on that name”
Phill Farber is a little like Newcombe, he combines techniques (Leary, NLP, energy work etc) well and with good insights; he uses magick in a modern way – I think he’s more experienced than Newcombe.
November 29, 2005 at 10:22 pm #8721NnonnthParticipantHeya Pietro –
Nearly missed your post here in amongst it all…
What you say about cultivation in the yang body is fascinating. The teaching of TaiJi to yang body makes aLOT of sense to me theoretically, but believe me I’m far off from attempting it, even if I knew TaiJi!
>>If you see Jesus after 4 days of staying awake. Or you see Jesus after ingesting a fungi, the process that happened in the brain is very similar.<< This is something I've thought about alot recently. I have a couple of friends who use ayahuasca (if you know about that - Brazillian shamans' drug) and get great results. I have literally no opinion on the inherent validity of drug experiences - it depends on the person. Are they a heaving junky wreck or do they have some earth? In principle there is no difference to me if one has an experience, how one got it - but did you bring it back, did you integrate it, and above all was its true content clear - this is what matters. It's about growth of micro from experience in macro to me. A fantastic book on this is Graham Hancock's new one, "Supernatural". If you contrast the traditional shamans who use drugs with those who simply dance (for example) you will find no real difference in the experiences. What is so interesting is the example you give - if you see "Jesus" what are you actually seeing? Perhaps a cultural expectation. If you're very unlucky, a demon who's trying to inveigle his way in. And so on. BTW, I am told from more than one source that you can OBE whilst your body is moving in a dance rhythm - it does not have to be static or lying or in asana or what have you. This is a shamanic technique. I haven't experimented with this yet but am planning to next year. What you say about grounding in Taoism is exactly right and is indeed the most important thing to work on right now for me. The thing about astral realms is that if you think of something it appears. You can see what stress that lays upon one's ability to be passive, neutral, so you do not lay onto the environment something that is there only because of you, and call it "real". Does this make sense? What people who cannot leave expectation behind see is being filtered through layers and layers of that expectation. They don't see what is really there, and this is true even of ordinary old planet Earth. I know I'm right about this because the best magical manuals (eg Bardon, Mickaharic) mention it specifically. Modern projectors like Peterson mention that, sure, you can teleport anywhere - but unless you get it exactly right, you're in a place that is *very similar* - but slightly skewed. Since I discovered I can get OB, and it is all real, I called a halt to train for it because I'm determined to take it slow and do it right. The import of all this in terms of fate and how one sees life is I'm sure obvious. It is the mechanism of what psychology calls "projection". Jan Fries - one of my favourite magical authors - would agree with you also on drugs. The reason they work at all is because the brain has a receptor for them, and the reason for *that* is, the brain can make them. He has some very elegant methods for making the mind do just that. He abjures drugs himself, and I am not using them at present - *however*, there is I'm sure the world of difference between being given ayahuasca by an experienced Brazillian shaman in a spiritual ceremony, and taking LSD in your bedroom! One of my best friends loves ayahuasca and says the plant has a personality, you develop a symbiote relationship with it... it's very lovely, but I don't know if it's for me. One of my favourite things about magic is using it to act in the real world at the drop of a hat. I really want to be disciplined enough to do without - but I would never say it was wrong to try anything. And those shamans unquestionably know their shit. What you say about groundedness - and the balance that goes with it - is exactly right. >>A question, when you speak about going ‘higher’ you mean higher as farther away from the center of the earth or higher as toward emotions-mental-shen?<< The latter. best NN
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