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a gratuitous plug for my (all free) site.
The book says:
-consult your doctor and shrink
-consult certified instructor
-take care.If one misses any of the above, it is “people”‘s fault, not Chia’s. Always.
Knowledge is always dangerous. Sometimes its presentation is more and sometimes less skillfull. Potentially usefull and potentially dangerous. Presentations evolve. Hence this forum.
Ignorance is always dangerous. How can ‘people’ be protected from themselves. Mistakes are learning.
If ‘people’ cannot take responsibility and still demand protection of authority, then ‘people’ are opening them self to being institutionalized or herded for something else.
‘People’ are not weak. Ask sharks.
Yes, that’s true that it is people’s fault not Chia’s. However, Chia knew that people would still do the same fault after he wrote the iron shirt book. Writing ANOTHER book, even with some precautions on it was not a good idea because it’s just the way Westerners are.
Chia did a good job presenting his worthy material in books, but these are not very good when dealing with Westerners, he didn’t know better. But then again, what choice did he have? Because he had to present this material so that more people in the West here could get a good taste of a great art like qigong and daoist nei dan. If he didn’t write books, he wouldn’t have been who he is today.
What’s important is the present, and now that people have some background like Trunk’s site, the Healingdao, or the Universal Tao which is becoming safer now, Westerners might now get this stuff without them being injured. Maybe they will know better than to learn from books and go and seek out instructors, teachers, masters, etc. Or maybe Westerners will continue to injure themselves, who knows?
Fajin
Oh, puh-lease.
If you’re unwilling to admit that the written material incurs no harmful consequences – that its %100 the students’ responsibility – then, by the same token, the written material incurs no beneficial consequences. That is, the book’s worth is zero (and $0), its %100 the students’ doings.Clearly that is not the case. Fact is, many people contribute many parts, and it all goes together in the consequential soup. Best for each party to do their best to contribute the best that they can. Actions have consequences. Fact is, that book is poorly written and as a result some significant number of poor ignorant students will practice on their own with it and hurt themselves by following the directions in that book. Let’s not try and whitewash things.
Its a messy state of affairs, and the better we all do, from all sides, to clean it up – the better for us all, and the better for future generations.
Its not just bad for students. It reflects poorly on the HT itself: If people don’t get good direction and results from the books, less likely that they’ll show up and pay $ for workshops, retreats, etc. It also is bad for instructors. Personally, with Chia’s writing material that bad, and Chia directing training of instructors, it doesn’t inspire any confidence in me to go to Chia’s ‘certified’ instructors for help. So, its injurious for students, bad for the HT, and bad for instructors.
You could chalk this up to poor writing skills. Well, if someone is a poor writer, they should stick to fiction, not books that influence people’s health. Let’s get serious, here, sheesh!
Hello Trunk,
I think that you might be overexaggerating a little bit here. Maybe Mantak didn’t do a very good job, but he certainly wan’t that bad of a writer. Ok, for me was different, I was already a very advanced practitioner trying out Chia’s stuff from books of which I began about 2 years ago.
I taught my younger brother (he was a beginner) some of Chia’s stuff, and he broke through the blockages in the orbit in about 3 weeks. He opened the orbit from what I presented to him in Chia’s first book, Awaken Healing Energy. I know you have a good method of the little orbit and some interestng techniques like yi swallows qi, but there are some people who, if they follow instructions as outlined in Chia’s book they will get the desired results. Then, there are others, who as Jernej said, will be their fault because they are taking their own precautions at risk here.
Chia’s writing style is not bad, he goes easy step-by-step which the Westerner can get, but the problem is, the Westerner is impatient and will want to continue on with more advanced methods because he gets pulled into that blissful sensation of qi.
Chia cautions in his book that the material is meant for REVIEW after learning from an instructor, not LEARNING by a BEGINNER. It is the Westerner who fails to take heed these cautions and wants to learn from a book. From what I read in some of Chia’s books, he is very successful with 1000’s of students from across the world, and some of those who learned from books. Well, that’s what I think of it all.
Smiles,
Fajinf> did I? >
No, it was this:
j> If one misses any of the above, it is “people”‘s fault, not Chia’s. Always. >
That statement is protectionist silliness, imo.
f> Maybe Mantak didn’t do a very good job, but he certainly wan’t that bad of a writer >
fyi, Chia doesn’t actually write any of his books, its generally one of the people listed as an “editor”. I still come back to my previous point, that “iron shirt” and “tire pressure” are very bad metaphors to guide practice. Some people get through ok, some don’t.
f> the material is meant for REVIEW after learning from an instructor, not LEARNING by a BEGINNER >
The fact is that these books are sold freely in bookstores, amazon, etc., and plenty of people self-teach using them. The better the writing, the better for everyone.
f> From what I read in some of Chia’s books, he is very successful with 1000’s of students from across the world >
PR. Again: some people do well by the practices, some don’t. My guess is that most people buy the books and never get in touch with an instructor. Those who do go to a workshop or retreat are in a class of 15, 40, 100, 150, spend an afternoon to several days in class and then go home and practice (or not). So, how much direct feedback do you really think that the HT gets from practioners that way? Maybe a “wow!, thanks for the teaching!” as they leave the workshop/retreat. But how many stay in touch with an instructor to work things out on a regular basis? Very, very few. So, how much feedback is the HT really getting? (Do the math.) Chia & Co. has undoubtedly sold lots of books, and some significant numbers have gone through workshops, some fewer through retreats. Adding up those numbers and calling them “very successful with 1000’s of students from across the world”.. PR.
Great Discussion, I feel you are both correct in your stances on Mantak Chia, my only comment is that with alot of these practices I believe the value of studying with a good teacher daily, plays in hand which is almost non-existent, with many of these practices as time continues to move on. When I started in these practices & similar schools of thought I was lucky enough to have a local english speaking Asian teacher and many phd Chinese Language Scholar students around us. Books are a matter of interpetation from the reader; and for sure the Warning at the beginning of the book should be considered.
Several Years ago I attempted to translate with my sources at hand many documents on Alchemy that utilized certain herb formulas during certain times of year. I sent it to the best in the field and almost everyone returned back with a “language that is unknown to interpet”.
If we study the migration of these arts from the east to here the west, we run into many problems one being cultural differences, probaly Mantak realized somewhere in his presenting his material the issues of translating a expressive and sometimes many meaning language into literal english a very huge chore.
I believe his main element was to come to the west and reveal what he learned, without holding back anything, which as we know can be a disaster especially in the age of information and most peoples “Fast Food mentality” of rushing processes.
Hopefully one day he will eliminate the whole book buisness and produce more Audio/Visual material that is up to date and can somehow represent his meanings better, with simpler handouts.
On a personal note many of the practices I do are totally different from 25 years ago and would probaly crawl under a rock if I had any record from those good old days.
I see these arts as progressing better, hopefully in the future with time here in the west we can realize what is the right path.All practices have their risk, I met someone who ended up in the hospital from practicing basic Meditation..and with a well known Omega Center teacher, who knew.
Yielding to external authority is never good.
Certification is insubstantial. It is the passion of practicioner that rubs off. And face photos are public so everybody can see for themselves.
Book is an attempt. Sure majority will suffer from experiment. Only minority will not. This is colective learning. Onehundredth monkey syndrome says that after enough people get learn via hurt such knowledge becomes collective and obvious to everybody. Block the attempts and such becomes more difficult to become obvious.
First attempt is almost always bad in retrospect. But it is standard. The challenge is to better it, not to supress it.
The challenge is what is better knowledge. This is an open-door learning.
The challenge is for HT and other clans. Book(s) did begin the era of sharing more’secrets’. Because instructors of other clans now had to say: (if) this is not ok, we do it like this and this. Before no such standard existed and no such expressing was necessary. Communications between clans were not open or encouraged.
Alternative is the law of silence, kowtowing and secrets. ‘Some knowledge may hurt you, so you get no knowledge. Or bow.’ Trickster business.
One should remember that tai chi chuan and bagua zhang got wind due to being enforcers for royality, ninjutsu assasins for royals, shaolin as enforcers of royals, many daoist temples had strong connections to royals. All connections go two ways. The establishment is the ultimate powerhouse. Very tricky.
I learned through as you call it “kowtowing”, I like to call it mutual respect to the system and the teacher, and art form. There is a certain value of having a CEO of your system, in old days you absorb their art form and then make it your own, after complete understanding of the prinicples et cetra. True not for everyone, and most can’t follow this path especially in a Modern Society, and this could ber debated endlessly.
I remember asking my teacher why do we follow such traditions? His reply was “We follow traditions to perserve the art, the learning process and to safely absorb each process step by step”. He believed in equality, respect and fortitude. Many students want the advanced practice but don’t to work for it either. There is no pay off if something is just given away and surface learning; and not keeping tradition risk the art or style to get watered down or shortcutted. There are some con teachers, this is where buyer beware comes in.
The West is in some respect a Country of the negative side of “Crtical Mass Information”; too many choices, too many styles & everyone is “Master” so & so. In the 1970’s, 1980’s there was only so many choices, so many books, so many teachers you had to follow this way, the payoff is that you learned clearly through the apprenticeship process, if you were around long enough. You also can see the same quality in the family unit, workforce and peoples basic personal code of ethics.
I value having a “Grey Hair Dog’s Around”, how good would this message board be without Michaels insight & input based on his training & perceptions. Everyone needs a Leader to give Polarity to their practice, it is the learning process. A grey Hair Dog is what a former Boss told me he was and I asked what is that? I got grey hair from learning and being around so long, to enlighten you newbe’s on your personal visons of granduer of what is correct.
These points of course are what I feel to be true for me and are not to be taken authoritive by any means. There are too many things to consider these days we are truly in a different Paradigm in regards to learning. With the Alchemy practices I think the Audios are the next best thing for learning these practice’s, it would be nice if there were many sessions available to be purchased to give a learner variance & variety. Great Discussion!
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