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Yeah, I think as soon as you strip zen of “and the art of”, you start to twiddle your thumbs and reach for the cigarettes, or whatever else is handy.
My initial personal exposure to zen came through the martial arts, which is different than what I haven’t really personally experienced (except for the brief encounter with the Austrian zen master, who for all I know may have been slipping out for a smoke in the breaks…), namely zen schools that are very “just sitting”, “focus constantly in the now”, purest kinds of schools.
I don’t think someone like D. T. Suzuki fits this category though, which sounds to me like like it could be called more of a “concentration” based zen.
With Suzuki there is a more insight oriented zen, what I would consider to be more truly buddhist–transcending subject-object dichotomies through sheer density of self reflexive insight steadily applied; philosophy as alchemical catalyst, as in Western alchemy.
What fascinates me about Tibetan tantra is that this kind of more or less permanently crystalized realization (in zen: kensho) is considered, as the fruit of mahayana, to be just the beginning, to be the foundation, the high school diploma; it is a bit arrogant of me to blithely speculate like this, but I think someone like Suzuki (or Cleary) groks zen in this way, but that other zen enthusiasts see it/are seeking it as an end state, the ultimate, which may mean they still subtly are not seeing it (“It” being “non-dual perception”), yet at the same time have become accomplished meditators, in the sense of being able to sharply focus continuously in the present moment.
SimonAlthough I did decide not to walk “that” way for several of the reasons mentioned, I do have to say that I think Ken Kohen got some of the “concepts” wrong. I read that article somewhere and thought: Sorry man. You haven’t really read the material.
Regarding Falun Gong being bad. I do not know if the Falun people in China are different to here. There is nothing in the teaching that allows them to be like this.
Am I a defender of Falun gong. No. But I think there is a lot of misconception out there about it.
Regarding using cult tactic: Well. If a Qigong-teacher tells his students that he needs to practice in order to receive benefits, this isn’T cult already, right? If teachers say students should not mix different forms, this could have a good reason, couldn’t it?
My main gripe with Falun Gong still is the “trust”-thing:
I remember a woman say, who believed the words of Master Li Hongzhi, that as a true practitioner you won’t have illness again. So she thought: I am a true practitioner, so I do not need to let my pacemaker-battery be changed… as it will be charged by the master.I do not know what happened to her, and I do not know much truth is in that believe. I just know that I personally do not have that much trust, be it because I have not so much enlightening substance or just common sense…
just sharing my thoughts
Harry
Harry,
I am not making a blanket condemnation of falun gong – lots of people gets lots of benefit from it, they learn a practice and the group gives them discipline to do qigong and focus on virtue.but its like a fish nibbling on a juicy worm. There’s a hook hidden inside, preying on your natural ego insecurity – if only I surrender totally to Li Hongzhi and the falun HE has placed in me, I will be fully enlightened, etc.
And its the hook that takes away your spiritual life, and feeds your chi, along with your focused belief, to someone/somwwhere else. And if you don’t do what they say, you have lost your power. This is total spiritual disempowerment, not common sense that “I should only do one practice at a time”.
It’s a tough lesson that anyone joining any group learns: the boundary between themselves and the group/leader. If you don’t form it, you are stuck with the level of the group. Initially, that might seem like an advancement for many, and fair trade off. But in the end, its a devil’s bargain when you try to unfold your own personal nature and destiny, and the group doesn’t allow it/condemns you.
The danger may be less pronounced here in the west where stronger tendency of people to mistrust outside authority protects them from excess “trust’, as it does you. In China the dominant thought form is “go along with the group”. Which is why the communist group spotted this one immediately as a competitor and nixed it. And qigong practictioners everywhere are suffering for falun’s group arrogance.
Yes, Michael. That is really a “hook” and one that I have seen several times at work throughout my short life. And to be honest: I better die unenlightened than fall for such a hook, that has bad intention behind it.
But: Li Hongzhi does not say that his lineage & school is the only. He says that there are others that follow a true path and that one can cultivate them too, but again: just one path.
I do have met Falun Gong practitioners who retreated from life, reading the Falun book day and night… but still I can not really find the support by the saying of the teacher.
And to condemn a teacher by his students is a problem I feel (I really DO wonder if there are differences in the teaching in China compared to overseas)…
Yes. The teaching’s hooks might pave the path for this, but aren’T there always hooks if somebody of a higher level (if that is the case) teaches people of the lower level? They ALWAYS need to believe in some of the things they do not yet know, experience etc.
And this thing with the Falun thing whirling in your body could be true… couldn’t it?
thankx for listening
Harry
first off
everything you people say is wrong.
Michael when you said that about mr li taking away the falun if you do something of another cultivation system is wrong.
that’s not what his book says
it says if you mix things from other cultivation systems with falun gong, then the falun will become deformed
the book also says mr li’s law bodies will take away the falun if you go about doing evil and having the wrong thoughts and attachments and not try to improve yourself. the reason his law bodies will take away the falun is because if mr li, let you keep the falun knowing that you were cultivating evil then THAT WOULD MAKE HIM NO DIFFERENT THAN SOMEONE DOING SOMETHING EVIL.
those are the only some of the recquirements for falun gong
after you reach a certain level you will have your own law bodies.
BUT YOU PEOPLE ARE REALLY MIXING UP THE TRUTH AND TWISTING IT TO MAKE FALUN DAFA LOOK LIKE A BAD THING.
THE REASON THAT JIANG MADE IT ILLEGAL IS BECAUSE HE WAS JEALOUS THAT 100 MILLION PEOPLE IN CHINA WERE DOIONG IT. HE IS A COMMUNIST AFTER ALLwhat i posted was ONLY my understanding of things, it doesn’t represent the teachings of falun dafa, you can check it out on the website http://www.falundafa.org it’s FREE on there.
here;s the post i was talking about :
first off
everything you people say is wrong.
Michael when you said that about mr li taking away the falun if you do something of another cultivation system is wrong.
that’s not what his book says
it says if you mix things from other cultivation systems with falun gong, then the falun will become deformed
the book also says mr li’s law bodies will take away the falun if you go about doing evil and having the wrong thoughts and attachments and not try to improve yourself. the reason his law bodies will take away the falun is because if mr li, let you keep the falun knowing that you were cultivating evil then THAT WOULD MAKE HIM NO DIFFERENT THAN SOMEONE DOING SOMETHING EVIL.
those are the only some of the recquirements for falun gong
after you reach a certain level you will have your own law bodies.
BUT YOU PEOPLE ARE REALLY MIXING UP THE TRUTH AND TWISTING IT TO MAKE FALUN DAFA LOOK LIKE A BAD THING.
THE REASON THAT JIANG MADE IT ILLEGAL IS BECAUSE HE WAS JEALOUS THAT 100 MILLION PEOPLE IN CHINA WERE DOIONG IT. HE IS A COMMUNIST AFTER ALL
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