July 25, 2006 at 12:17 am #15642
Ron – please watch your language or Paulina will be blocked from posting.
I have been busy teaching retreats, and it seems the summer heat has dulled the minds of a few discussants here.
This forum is not for mindless dumping or political harangues or venting using hate language.
Please think before you post.
I will be monitoring more closely.
MichaelJuly 25, 2006 at 1:39 am #15643
I do not know you and you may think it is presumptuous of me to tell you what to do, but I will anyway as a matter of helping supply balance as I see it. Please consider what I am about to tell you seriously.
Everybody feels pain over what is going on all over the world, not just you. Michael’s feelings are not turned off to the matter. Sending the anger you feel and haven’t yet resolved about things to the people around you will not help you feel any better nor will it help those people suffering in other parts of the world.
When you speak out like you have been you are taking the unconscious role of the victim along with those directly involved in the war. The experiences that are happening all over the world are the effects of thinking and unconsciousness. If you want to help, start by feeling the pain you have, bring consciousness into your feelings, instead of trying to get away from them by covering them up with anger. Under the anger there is always fear. When you find some balance with that, then “smile at the enemy” and let yourself remember that “they” are “us” and include them in your love. Right now, your fear may think that is preposterous and I’m an asshole for telling you to do this. It’s up to you to listen to a higher voice.
Respectfully, AlexanderJuly 25, 2006 at 10:57 am #15645
Sorry for starting that up
was posting for shocks sake but wasn’t expecting such animosityJuly 25, 2006 at 3:19 pm #15647
People like you make me yawn. If you feel so much anger and frustration DO something instead of sitting behind your computer making comments, you are not different than Alexander – as you would respect him if he was a monk; Ha, what are you then? You are at the other edge of that same line, he is trying to be positive, you are being negative.
You would gain some admiration if you actually did something constructive, like giving part of your money to people who are working hard in the field or even take a bag and go to Beirut and give some helping hand…instead of yelling that the bad guys are doing bad things, people who have eyes to see, see, or are you afraid you are the only one who KNOWS and we are all stupid and ignorant.
We all keep an eye on that spot because it can be the very beginning of what we don’t want to happen…
be still and pray or meditate or connect to whatever you believe instead of feeding the burning fire…July 25, 2006 at 4:54 pm #15649
Agreed, but . . . there is NO place for HATRED. It makes you no better than “them”. I put that in quotations b/c there are atrocities happening all over the world and “they” could be from any nation/religion, and if you truly trace who’s behind these things . . . well, this website isn’t about politics, so back to the anger/hatred thing . . .
Stop bitching (sorry about the language) and do something productive . . . not something HATEFUL, something productive. Big difference. Religions will always exist . . . violence and war will always exist. Do something to help (not to help the extremist on either side, to help the innocents who are suffering).
And talking about “the Jews” in such a general term . . . that’s like saying all Muslims are extremists and terrorists (which we should all know is the farthest thing from the truth), …please, give me a break. . . .July 25, 2006 at 6:27 pm #15651
“Dude, these fanatic hateful supremacists are bringing the whole world into the worst conflict the world has yet to see and you and your kin are still feeding yourself the bullshit of “smile at the enemy”. If you were a renunciate monk I would respect you, but as people living in the world it is everybody’s duty to fight evil.”
Brother, what you fail to see here is that there is no such thing as “they.” I mean this in the most concrete way. We are all one thing living out and working out the unresolved energies within the lifeforce and the dao. There is no “they.” You insult my viewpoint, calling it bullshit, because you have let your fear turn into anger because you view yourself as a victim. How does it feel when you talk hate to us? My father’s stuffed feelings of victimhood often expressed as a controlling rage turned into pancreatic cancer.
It is no one’s “duty” to fight evil. Fighting has never resolved the issues and it never will. “Fighting against” promotes the dualistic attitude in which war thrives. Do you think that Jesus or Lao Tzu fought against evil? Has any enlightened being that you can think of promoted war as a means to end war? Think.
“You people are deeply sick and rotten to the core. You live in a pipe dream. Your meditations are self-delusional.”
I am sorry you feel so bad. I understand it. This is what you think about yourself.
“You don’t get angry not because you have mastered your anger but because you can’t feel jackshit. It’s like claiming to have mastered one’s sexual impulse when all one have is sexual impotence. There is a legitimate time for anger and action and this is it. If there was no legitimate use for anger, we simply would not have that capability. So dont bullshit me with saying that I am angry. Of course I am and rightly so. My country is accomplice in slaughtering the innocent and my government is occupied by israeli zionist nationals and unless you want to be held accountable by the TAO you’d better be angry too.”
I know what the government has been doing. I have lived with anger a lot. I have fought against what I didn’t like. I have found that that makes the problems worse. If fighting could have changed anything it would have by now. Fighting and standing up for truth are two different things. Why don’t you act the way you say you want the world to be? The answer is because your hate (through your fear) has taken you over and you do not really want peace. You want to kill the enemy that is frightening you.
It is most important to remember that what you send out to others has to go through you first. What kind of energy are you cultivating when you send your frustrated rage at Michael, us or “the Jews?” You cannot accomplish the result you are saying you want by creating more hate. There is no other choice but to speak and act from a point of balance within. Most of the world is lost in unconscious behavior. If you send more unconscious anger out there you are feeding the problem. However, if you wanted to take the time to express that you feel awful and powerless about what is going on, that would be a healthy way to approach the dilemma.
The purpose of meditation is to align with the universal mind and the harmony it emanates. This does not mean do nothing on external levels. If you think you should be doing something to help, then go do that. Screaming at us to enflame us will not stop the killing. Besides, you are making a lot of assumptions about what any of us is doing besides meditating to help things in the world.
We all have fears to get through. This is why this shitty stuff exists in the world. All of it is a reflection of our fear which comes from our inability to recognize each other as divine manifestations. When you look at the mideast and get crazy with anger you have become lost in the group mind in fear. Your fear has taken over. At this point you believe in your fear, that is what you see in front of you and then think you have to do something about it. It takes more strength not to act based on what your fear is telling you than it does to follow the fear.
I have been laying this out in order to promote another way of approaching the situation. It is not meant to lecture you but to establish balance. Do with it as you will.
Blessings, AlexanderJuly 25, 2006 at 10:08 pm #15653
You continue to disrespect this forum. Please realize that this is a forum for the Taoist community.
Being a part of the Taoist community does not dictate one’s political views. I think an honest and respectful discussion about politics could be enlightening and fun on this forum, and in keeping with the Taoist theme. However, you are a thorn with your attitude and hostility and disrespect.
It seems you thrive on anger and hatred. There are many other forums where you would have a lot of fun. Free Republic would instantly label you a troll, but I’m sure you’d have some fun according to your standards. And then there’s the Democratic Underground, but make sure to include “It’s Bush’s fault” in your reasoned argument for maximum resonance.
Anyway, I’m hoping that you get banned from this forum. You have nothing positive to contribute.
The Way flows and ebbs, creating and destroying,
Implementing all the world, attending to the tiniest details,
Claiming nothing in return.
It nurtures all things,
Though it does not control them;
It has no intention,
So it seems inconsequential.
It is the substance of all things;
Though it does not control them;
It has no exception,
So it seems all-important.
The sage would not control the world;
He is in harmony with the world.July 26, 2006 at 3:07 am #15655
You are entitled to your opinions about how things are and what to do about them. And you are entitled to the energies you wish to commune with. You are not entitled to invade the energetic space of others with hatred and insults. And we are not obliged to let you in when you do.
Goodbye, AlexanderJuly 26, 2006 at 3:19 am #15657
And I thought I had problems with you not recycling!July 26, 2006 at 4:13 pm #15659
you are dangerously close to becoming god of jews
and those of jewish indoctrination are rightfully afraid of his rightous anger
but then was not his rebirth the goal from the beginning?
you do not evoke the whitelighter’s way
but remember that sleepers work in the moonlight
and are docile in light
just eating with cuttlery and calm heart
all is in timing and skill
this is a joke
but even if all fails
all that will fail is human civilization
current human civilization
this will end kali yuga
and new eon will reset
just remember that nurturing the bindu is the worst curse a collective beast can meet
PS: Taoists are not passive sages only. Even Michael refers to ‘incomplete training’ when addressing active work of individuals in the society.
‘184 AD: The Rebellion of the Yellow Turbans, a Taoist initiative directed
against the tyrannical Later Han Dynasty effectively ended Han power and
the Three Kingdoms era began in 220 AD. ‘
PPS: I do not see any problems on the 50-200 years timeline.July 26, 2006 at 9:00 pm #15661
so you agree that the integration of opposites is the way to go in terms of spiritual cultivation?
I agree that culturaly we’re not at that stage now, but that’s no reason to activly partisipate in pushing our culture further and further into polarity.
>>In turn, we have an obligation to fight for justice and against evil.<<
so this is a duality – justice and evil. obviously *your* view of reality is 'the true one' so you're fighting for justice – and most others, who do not see the world through your unique perspective are obviously wrong – so they're supporting evil – right?
So if you forget the specific lables 'justice' and 'evil' – and just have them as yin and yang – then is what you're doing really following this high practice of integrating opposites if you just support and push exclusively one side of the duality?
I hope you see that pushing just one side of the seesaw down, inveriably brings the other side up!?
The fact is you're not the only one 'fighting' (or more like getting angry) for justice – the israelis, the palestinians, george bush are all at it – and all it does is create further duality – which creates further opposite *extremes* between war/peace, wealth/poverty, health/illness etc.
Forget about specifics – if everyone followed your advice and fought for *what they think is justice* then the world would be in a further turmoil than it is now!July 27, 2006 at 11:47 am #15663
I understand that violence will forever be a part of human civilization. I personally like the United States motto “Armed Freedom: triumphant in war and peace.” It is a statement of intent. It accepts the violent nature of man, but offers another way to exists. “Armed Freedom” is such a powerful statement. Each word is important and the meaning is destroyed without either. Being armed without freedom is just as bad as having freedom without being armed.
I’d like to consider myself open to opposing views. I really would. But sometimes it just comes down to a simple few questions. Two in this case…
What would you do if your enemy disarmed?
Do you celebrate victory or death?
I’ll answer for myself. If my enemy disarmed, I would not disarm myself because I believe in armed freedom. I would celebrate peace and try to increase my nations wealth through economic relations. But I would also prepare for war, because I want to be able to win if it ever happens again.
My nation celebrates life, freedom and victory. We just had one of our biggest celebrations July 4th: Our official declaration of independence. We then had to fight a war to defend that independence, but that’s part of life.
I can not think of one celebration about the death of our enemies. We just don’t do that. We usually express regret or fortitude. We used a nuclear weapon on Japanese civilians. We either condemn ourselves for doing this or steel ourselves and say that war is hell. I have never heard of one single American dancing in the streets because a Japanese was vaporized. I’ve heard callous remarks, but never celebration because of death.
When I look around the world and watch the celebrations, I’m most aware of the celebrations of death. People dancing in the streets to celebrate 9-11, subway bombings in the UK, and the latest bombings in Israel. These people are openly celebrating the deaths of other human beings. I find that disgusting and I can not believe their cause is just.July 27, 2006 at 12:28 pm #15665
When there is hate there is no love, at least not for your enemy. So I think it is pretty obvious you are happy and joyful when you see your enemy slaughtered and death. When hate has become part of your roots, you have every reason to dance and sing on the death bodies. No compassion, why should you! It is at least ‘honest’ to celebrate over the death of your enemy… So better not being hypocrite Yi Tao. If you celebrate the 4th of July you celebrate the victory over others, you won, they lost, hurray!July 27, 2006 at 12:52 pm #15667
I do not think Paulina is being reasonable. Exactly the opposite. The title was sarcastic.
Celebrating the 4th of July is celebrating freedom and self determination, not the defeat of others. We hadn’t won anything when we celebrated the first 4th of July. We were celebrating a piece of paper being signed that stated our intent. We stated “We are free and we will stay free and we will defend that freedom with our lives!” The official war started after our party.
If you want to take it to an extreme, how about slavery? Should slaves celebrate when they are freed from the slave master? And what about women? Should women celebrate when they get the right to vote?
Now that you understand I was being sarcastic with the title, maybe you could reread my previous post. You’ll still disagree, but for valid reasons rather than emotional.July 27, 2006 at 1:23 pm #15669
I think I miss the point here… so probably leave it…too hot to think reasonable anyway 🙂
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