Question for Michael and others, too on THOUGHTS………….

– listen don’t worry ok, this thread has convinced me that Zennists are not on a head trip like kundalini guys and some magicians are. So we agree.

I just say this: when something is very small, it does not mean it is an illusion! If there is only a tiny percentage of the universe that has physical manifestation so what? There still is, and because we are here, it still matters! – and it is still ‘real’.

The illusion is that ‘this is all there is’, not that ‘this exists’. It certainly does exist and for very good reasons. See?

NN

I just meant tot hrow that article in there for Dog because I just wanted to show that alchemy does occur for Buddhists. I could have chose a different peice from the internet, but I think that due to that article a nice thread opened up and we all got something out of it, wouldn’t you say. 🙂

Fajin

Hi NN:

I think you miss my point.

I was talking to Faj about communicating with people into alchemy, not alchemical proccess. In my experience when talking about life alchemists they spit things into pieces, and they are limited and restricted by these pieces or steps. THese steps and “processes” are not rigid, the entire proces can occur at anytime.

But my point was if you talk from a Chan experience perspective with an alchemist, the alchemist will isolate and dissect the words to fit their step by step method and compare and contrast to the point of jus trying to distuinguish themselves from others.

And the alchemists just make a statement not rooted in truth and run with it to separate themsleves from other systems.

Below I comment on each of your questions.

I simply don’t understand! It isn’t the alchemists who polarize towards the multiple, but the life force itself, Tao itself, the Primordial itself… the 10,000 things are not unnecessary distinctions, they are necessary disctintions! We all have left and right sides, we have organs in certain patterns… The fact that we have twos and fives inside us indicates the fundamental nature, not only of the one from which we descend, but of the way that one divides into many, which is equally natural and necessary. It reminds me that Isis had to unite the scattered fragments of Osiris long enough to make love to him, in order that Horus be born (sorry to bring in Egyptiana, but they’re doing it on the ‘General’ page anyhow…) That legend is precisely similar to the alchemical process of the HT as I now see.
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Im saying some alchemists, in their communication with people are very polarizing, they are looking only for differences with others, not the common ground. This has nothing to do with nature, but how people talk.

This is why I say it is puzzling to me. It seems obvious to me that life is not an illusion, obvious that there is health and sickness in the body, and obvious that balance is important. There is no disconnection between yin yang and yuan (or Mem Shin and Aleph for the kabbalistically inclined). It is all one great meaning.
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Illusion usually refers to people’s own wants and desires to have things the way they want, not they way things are. Wanting physical immortality, as the old chinese wanted was an illusion and these illusions create a way to view and live life that takes one away from living in their yuan nature.

So alchemists don’t ‘play with the separation’, Tao does! In the correcting/shaping/harmonizing that you are talking about the body and life are healed. Is this insignificant? Only if one believes physical life is also insignificant!
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I think I explained this above.

Maybe the reason I prefer Taoism is that it keeps contact with shamanic roots and pagan roots. Then again so does Hinduism, so what do I know? Perhaps I’m just playing semantics here. But I don’t think so!
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Lots of tao shamanism is not so positive, people tend to choose what they want. In a way the White Cloud method filters out lots of shaman stuff.

regards,

bagua

Hey Bagua –

>>I was talking to Faj about communicating with people into alchemy, not alchemical proccess<>Illusion usually refers to people’s own wants and desires to have things the way they want, not they way things are.<>Lots of tao shamanism is not so positive, people tend to choose what they want. In a way the White Cloud method filters out lots of shaman stuff.<<

Well I know what you mean! But I only said it kept in contact with those roots. There is a definite split – following Narby – between old and new religion in terms of the reflexive value accorded the ordinary human life.

NN

“I just meant tot hrow that article in there for Dog because I just wanted to show that alchemy does occur for Buddhists.”

Anyone one who knows what to ask for and can make space for the change. There are alot of ammazing things that can happen in ones life if you have a relationship with the life force. What is proper relationship? What is your role? The life force holds all potential but we make the chooses. There are aspects to this discussion that are hard to understand sence we learn in a linear fashion. Now that we are not linear but that we choose to us it as a tool. We live in a linear world to help with the process. We make color pearls to help with the process. Our pets are great helpers giving us love teaching us of acceptance. There is so much here to help us. I am not preaching, I am shure alot know this already just making my world know.

Hi:

“Hmm… rather different from Fajin’s definition! And furthermore exactly the definition I have given on my own account, a good four or five times already – that this physical world *is not* an illusion but can be the *cause* of illusion in the human mind.”
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I think another way to say this is we have a choice how we experience life. Illusion is just a word to express there are other ways to experience life, the long history of cultivators reveals a common awareness shared, this for the sake of our discussion is the state we cultivate, other extreme states take us from this and we call it illusion.

bagua