[HCWB]

The user agreement you are refering to is just an automated message that the boards server puts out. It just asks you not to use profanity and not to threaten or harrass people. Anyone can join the forum, which is very open and requires no vow.

S

[HCWB]

Just a quick note- David’s current teacher is a Lei Shan Dao master; sorry if my letter somehow suggests otherwise. As to the other questions, first you have to understand the context in which I’m using the word power. Perhaps we should let those who have achieved immortality (a state that is really beyond our ability to fully understand anyway) make comments on what immortality is or is not; I would only like to suggest that it is beyond a mental construct and those who have achieved it can demonstrate that fact. I would invite you to the forum David’s students have set up for further discussion on the matter. This topic has been addressed at length there and It’s not really my intention to continue any further discussion on this board.

S

[HCWB]

The achievement of objective results is simply a useful side effect of effective practices. It allows one to measure progress in a concrete way; not the goal of the practice, but rather a natural outcome to be moved beyond. To say that those who are seeking through the practices of the Lei Shan Dao or who have achieved these abilities are compensating for a feeling of powerlessness is really inaccurate. Power is simply a necessary, basic measure of the progress one is making toward immortality and enlightenment in this life and the after death state. If enlightenment and immortality were such effortless endeavors that required no practical achievement, then the world would be full of living immortals; in reality, this is not the case.

Enlightenment has always been a ‘fuzzy’ thing; therefore it’s easier to play around with it. Immortality on the other hand is quite a word, and even Chia in the early books clearly stated that the immortality he was referring to was pretty physical; with reference to achieving the rainbow body and daylight ascension. It has now become a rather diluted word, subject to creative ‘interpretation’ and nobody ever addresses the main point: what are the practical results and implications of the immortal practices of the HT?

People are numbed by the use of words they have no understanding of, and again, the fact that there is no standard of reference (nobody is able to demonstrate and prove anything) makes the actual meaning and implication of those words all more fuzzy. It could be argued that the ‘basic formulas’ are good and beneficial; and, for the most part, there are no false expectations behind them. For example, one does not become enlightened or immortal from practicing the ‘microcosmic orbit’ and does not expect to; the basic formulas also do not imply the development of preternatural powers. However, when a student moves on to the HT immortal practices, the convenient ‘fuzziness’ begins.

In the Lei Shan Dao, no Pai (school) makes promises of physical immortality or rainbow body characteristic of Xian Tian Fa, but they do promise and prove the Yin Yang Gong and that after ‘level 4’ one can go and come back. Logically if someone never witnesses this, it is hard to believe.

The same issues apply for enlightenment. Everyone that has some cosmic revelation is enlightened and writes a book on it. But, why, since the death of Buddha and Christ, have millions of people closed themselves in monasteries and temples to find the Divine, to realize this enlightenment and yet few succeed? Are they all stupid? The Dalai Lama has clearly stated he is not enlightened or immortal and that he has met only a few who are. Others in equally meaningful positions have said much the same. Do we really know better? Conceptually speaking, if by immortality and enlightenment we mean psychological comfort, an idea that helps Christians without enough faith that the lord has already saved them, then qigong, as it has largely emerged in the west, is as good as anything else. But this is not the way that Daoists in China understand the topic.

Gross displays of power, if you have never met a master, are easily misunderstood. The burning of a newspaper by John Chang in the now famous Ring of Fire documentary is a good example. If you understand or have this ‘power,’ then you know it’s the fire that burns away the very karma that binds us to this mortal body and leads to enlightenment. The outer manifestation of this power is just the shell. If you don’t have the contextual knowledge to recognize this truth, then such things will have no meaning.

Let us remember that the same phenomena, such as healing and other manipulations of material reality, are written about in many faith traditions such as the Christian faith, were they are considered a sign of sainthood. Individuals such as Saint Teresa of Avila, perhaps one of the more well known examples, was widely believed to levitate in the ecstatic state of devotion on a regular basis; is she too fulfilling some ill perceived need for power? In orthodox Christianity, the basis of the main doctrine taught is the achievement of sainthood. Sainthood, and its requisite power, for them are equal to striving toward the realization of the resurrected body of light displayed by Jesus for the disciples on mount Tabor.

The same is true for all abilities or miracles such as walking on water and resurrecting the dead. Only the ignorant see them or seek them as empty manifestation of power. Those who know the difference between empty power and achievement see the purpose, the allegorical meaning behind the power.

It is true that this path is not for everybody and teachings were given to help also those who wouldn’t or couldn’t undertake such commitments, but to be honest the careful reading of the scriptures leaves much to debate by what achievement really means and if those who did not give their lives to reach measurable results would actually achieve salvation or immortality. In the view of real Christian hermits, Buddhist and Bon practitioners, interestingly, it is not enough.

So, again conceptually, if by immortality and immortal soul/self we mean actually psychological comfort or an ‘understanding,’ then HT is as good as anything else. If the HT maintained only these humble goals, wellbeing and simple qigong for health and emotional management, there would be no flaw; the point is that since the beginning, the HT was presented as a way to immortality also.

Although most people are confused about such matters, it should still give rise to questions when people of no provable achievement and without a lineage or a master of concrete achievement talk of such matters like it is the most natural, effortless thing on earth, fundamentally coaxing people into believing that by attending Kan Li courses and practicing them for a few years they will have an immortal fetus, having realized their immortality.

The point is simple yet not many want to see it. Too much talking as usual is done on major ontological matters like immortality or enlightenment and logically if there are not objective standards (too uncomfortable and therefore denied) anyone can claim to know the truth about such things, which is fine as long as it remains in the realm of pure debate or friendly conversation. But, when even one person, not to mention 1,000 people, put their heart, belief, life, destiny and time into someone’s hands looking for an answer, a solution and the realization of their dreams, then the chosen person has an ethical duty to search for something beyond subjective reality. He or she needs the humility to accept that, like the Daoist-Buddhist story, it is one thing to know the Dao and to speculate on the Buddha fields and another thing to walk the Dao and be able to go and come back from the Buddha fields carrying the fruits of objective realization. Like the Buddha said, dharma is beyond theories; dharma is to be tested, manifested and realized here and now. The unforgettable story of Ling Zhi chopping off the finger of his disciple upon hearing him claiming he was enlightened in the master’s presence, even after many years of retreat in the mountains, should make one reflect.

So, whoever claims a spiritual truth and makes promises of immortality for example, or rejuvenation, if he or she is in the role of teacher, there is an ethical duty to be able to prove at least certain achievements that simply show the ability to bring the student into uncharted. Otherwise the blind lead the blind.

If a teacher is not yet in that position but he or she chooses or is chosen to open the way for others, then, even more, there must be a root, a lineage of representatives to guide from the top down; a lineage of beings in the flesh, accomplished in their practice, not just in the mind. If it’s Daoism we speak about, then we should know that Daoism implies not only the realization of powers but their application and manifestation.

A few of lines to address the accusations of Mike Winn:

James McConnell is the second westerner David introduced to Shi fu Luo in 2002. David and James are still close. Mike Winn makes too many assumptions here. From what I’m told James has said very little about his apprenticeship.

Luo had five masters and of all his western students, David is the only one who met three of the five. The One James met does not accept students and James only met him as a student of Luo who forbid him to look for him on his own. David has also met and worked with this master on many occasions and it’s not true that James was accepted to the so called inner circle and David was not. The opposite, if anything, would be truer.

Luo had five masters and of all his western students, David is the only one who met three of the five. The One James met does not accept students and James only met him as a student of Luo who forbid him to look for him on his own.

The ‘bagua circle” Winn is talking about is just a fantasy, there is no such thing. He’s drawing this from the fact that one of Luo’s masters produced eight masters. Luo is the youngest of eight. For the record, the master that James met is Luo’s Tong Ling teacher not the Lei Shan Dao (thunder path) one. Tong Ling is the so called ‘religious’ line of the Dao.

All this is really quite beside the point as David knows many Hsien (someone who has achieved immortality) of greater accomplishment then Luo. He has been accepted as a so called ‘inner door’ student by four masters. His current teacher (not Luo), has safely produced over thirty students who have reached the first stages of Hsien, or Daoist immortality (the so called level 4/5), and beyond. These are all healthy, well adjusted people, many with normal families and children. I wouldn’t classify them as ‘extreme yang.’ Nor would I say the practices are for the few; although it’s true they require a lot of discipline. On the contrary, the Lei Shan Dao is considered one of the few Dao that’s realistically achievable by lay practitioners.

Recently David was accepted as a family student by his current teacher; this is a step beyond ‘inner door student.’ You’ll have to forgive all the dramatic labels, becoming a family student simply means that the student becomes part of the master’s family in virtually the same sense as a biological child, with all the rewards and responsibilities that come with the position. This is unheard of (for a westerner) in the Lei Shan Dao and represents a big step, both for David and, even more perhaps, his Shi fu. Over three hundred masters and practitioners traveled from all over China to be present at David’s acceptance ceremony, which I attended. Many of them came from remote, little known areas of China to be there.

I’m not here to spark further debate on the subject, but I would ask those listening to carefully weigh the criticism and judgment Mike Winn has made against David and others over the past decade. Just know that there is a different perspective out there than the one he’s giving. All these stories of David’s past as an Orphan and other such nonsense are largely a falsehood, or at least misperceptions that have been exaggerated beyond the pale.

There is a lot more that could be said, but it’s not my intention to dwell on the subject. I hope there can be some closure on the topic and old judgments can be put to rest. We should really be working together in service.

Sincerely, Sean D.

http://foundation73.proboards55.com/

[HCWB]

Hi Craig,

I finally managed to find this guys posting. The HT forum is rather prehistoric and I didn’t scroll down enough; nobody can stretch a dime like Michael Winn! Ron used to tease him because he was so freaked out about making a buck; selling Daoist formulas like a used car salesman. (said in good fun)

Anyway, I don’t think Rares is saying he was with our group, but with another group led by David.

Here’s my two cents: I think the guy is pretty reasonable. But, his is just one view, fueled, of course by the same pride that fuels all of us to dismiss things such as this. If you read it carefully, he’s basically saying the same thing Michael Winn has been saying for the past 15 years, “I have gotten to a point where I’m satisfied that I know enough and I’m comfortable.” My Buddhist training has taught me a little about human nature and it basically is in line with what David has said. Basically, pride, which is the idea that we don’t need or don’t want to learn anymore from others, is the most common human characteristic when it comes to most of us. I guess I’ve just made a personal commmitment to keep learning and stay humble. Beware the arrogance of ignorance, as David states over and over in his conversations with us. He simply means that there is never a point where someone can say, “I know enough” and be right.

My first Tai Chi teacher, from China and a Buddhist, was fond of saying, “There’s always a higher mountain.” He understood what keeping life in perspective is all about.

In all fairness, it is quite possible that Michael or this Rares are actually on to something and prefer to consult the “Guru within, so to speak.” But, personally, I prefer a guide who has reached a high level in their practice, because that’s what I’m into and I think I will progress faster and more effectively and I’m willing to pay for it. Anyway, we all get to where we are going in our own time and are own way and it’s ment to be that way.

Best, Sean

[HCWB]

Michael,

Nice talking with you. Give my regards to your family.

Ditto, Sean

[HCWB]

I would also like to briefly add that according to John Chang, who is a wise teacher, the process of reincarnation is quite real and very natural; really nothing to be overly concerned about. The most important things in life are friends, family and respecting your heart and hearts of others. I have chosen a lifestyle of cultivation like many of you and my interests go beyond the norm; please don’t interprete my sharing about David’s teaching as some kind of condisending attack on the people in the Healing Dao because they don’t believe in following the “One true path.” If my posts have made anyone feel insulted, I’m sorry, please know you have my respect. Michael has been spinning the same tales since I met him in 98 and while it’s true that we have our differences, my intention here is only to share an opportunity along with my own personal views. If your not interested that is completely fine with me, if you are great.

I realize that the Healing Dao is comprised of a greater body of knowledge than what Michael alone offers. People like Renee and Juan Li are good teachers and have helped a lot of people emotionally and physically. I think some of the ideas presented are helpful and a stepping stone to something more for those interested who want to go beyond the HT methods in their personal practice.

Peace, Sean

[HCWB]

Michael,

I have never claimed that this is the only method used to move passed the reincarnation process and I have never condemned “Everyone else as a fake.” As I have said there are many other valid spiritual paths that work in different ways. The only thing I’m claiming is that the HT methods are flawed. You are entitled to your opinions, but I still feel what David’s offering is an incredible opportunity; primarily because he has so many successful students. As to the cost, I know many people in the healing tao who have spent 10,000 and up on various workshops; in my opinion many of them haven’t achieved what David is offering. I think the price is actually quite reasonable and I have seen offers much higher that don’t include two to three years of training and the opportunity to meet a master like the ones David knows.

Actually the training of John Chang’s lineage was offered to all students free of charge. Many students achieved the first and second stage, but no one in thirty years can do what John Chang can do or produce the yin yang gong electricity. This is the case with the few high level masters who teach publicly. Some can’t teach because they lack the ability and some don’t because they want to keep it to themselves.

Yes, I’m aware of James’ connection with Luo. He’s not offering what David is. If he was, he would be charging a similar price for his time and commitment. Some of David’s students have even been accepted by Luo as students and are progressing beyond the second stage as I have described. David knows and has a similar relationship with 9 or 10 masters like Luo; some can train students to Robert Pengs level in a few years. It would be wonderful if these practices became more available and at a lower cost, but at this time in history these kinds of opportunities are not openly taught, as you seem to suggest. To suggest otherwise is misleading.

Even if Robert Ping has achieved yin yang gong, not out of the realm of possibility, I would need to know how many students he is able to teach this skill to. Sounds like he was born with some ability; this often happens when you’ve achieved in previous lives- If Robert is genuine, this is likely the case. I will look into it and thank you for sharing; hopefully this isn’t just another dead end for people. I’d be curious to know if he is teaching what he was taught and taking students into the “false death” state you speak of. I would imagine, if he can teach this, that it would require sacrifices of one’s time, energy and financial assets that are similar to what every other teacher out there requires of close students.

As for his Kan and Li, it seems like he had more than a little training in some serious foundation. Even if the basic outline of the Kan & Li practice taught in the HT is correct, that doesn’t mean the methods to apply it or the underlying principles are understood. For example, the famous translation of Taoist Yoga by Charles Luk is a real method that works quite well, but the underlying principles and true meaning of these teachings are never written. They are passed down from teacher to student along with the methods and principles that aren’t explained in the book, but are necessary to actually apply the techniques.

There are lot’s of great healers in the States; Ze’ev Coleman, a Jewish healer in NY, has similar abilities to the Yin Yang Gong Masters in China, but he has no idea how to teach it by his own admission.

I’m not judging Ron and I find your subtle implication that he became ill due to his practice insulting. He was exposed to asbestos and I’m sorry, but this has nothing to do with how his earth qi was refined or the lack of. I trust Ron and the other instructors I spent time with and I think they had valid concerns. I find the idea that your inner planes teachers are filling you in on the missing Kan and Li info a little questionable. After all, anyone can claim that they have invisible teachers; I know dozens of people that claim to have spirit guides who guide them and tell them the future. I’m not saying they are all fakes, but I certainly question their claims. Interestingly David, showed us pictures of his, so called invisible teachers- a least these offer some kind of evidence; and of course his current teachers are alive and well; I met them personally.

David is a pioneer in his field. I simply wanted to share my views and let people know about what he’s teaching. It’s easy to cut me down and chip away at my credibility from the comfort of your easy chair; after all I don’t have a book, website or a marketing strategy.

As for your offer to test my abilities, it’s on baby.

Best, Sean

[HCWB]

The electricity is the result of someone who has actually combined yin and yang qi. The outward ability is simply a result of a much more profound change in the body-mind of the practitioner. In the Lei Shan Dao when the “cords” that hold the Dantien are cut, the practioner has reached the first stage of immortality. If your really interested, the author of the book Entitled The Magus of Java wrote very clearly on the various stages of the practice and how they correspond to the various stories of immortality. He was appreticed to a living immortal named John Chang. Believe what you will. At this point, and actually even in the stage preceeding this one, reincarnation ceases. Immortality, the kind where one lives on in the material body, is rarer, but I personally believe the stories.

As to the transmission you received, I have experienced similar things with a few masters, one from India and one from Tibet. In each case, I felt incredible bliss and the sensation of energy. I trained in the master from India’s basic technique and after a few weeks was able to duplicate this bliss and energy on my own.

I trained in this technique for about one year and I believe this particular master does have some level of realisation because he under went 20 years of training as a monk and another 5 in tapas; tapas is 21 hours per day, every day, of meditation in the highest pitch of Samadhi. He told us that he went in to his meditation room with one commitment; either I come out a yogi or my dead body shall come out. It’s my belief at this point in my practice that, while perhaps if one dedicated himself to a technique like this under these conditions for that long they could achieve a genuine level of realisation or become a saint, most people don’t have this kind of opportunity to practice.

I also believe that with any basic meditation technique, if you practice long enough and hard enough you will experience all the various sensations of bliss, light and energy. But in the end these really don’t amount to anything because they are defined and limited set of sensory perceptions. They are the first step in a much broader range of actual results.

One thing that attracts me to these masters in China is that they can objectively measure your progress by touching you and using their qi to see how far you have progressed. They can tell the exact state of your Dantien and whether you’ve done any practice or not. Actually, to open your Dantein for real, meaning you break the first two cords and achieve what’s commonly refered to as stage two or level two, you have to be extremly careful to control strong emotions.

If for example, you touch a person in anger, your qi will go straight to their heart, following the path of least resistence and destroy the tissue there. This is why the Tibetan Buddhists go through so much trouble to teach Dharma and non-violence before they teach students the higher level Vajra practices. Some Tibetan lineages still teach up to stage two. Also the Chinese military trains their solders to this level, but it’s really a very basic achievement in comparrison to the Lei shan dao masters in China that I met. In fact, the author of the Magus of Java achieved level two; at one point he almost killed a few of his students on accident. His hands and other energy points have marks on them where his qi issued from his body. Interestingly, Tibetan practitioners who complete the Vajra practice known as Phowa have these same markings on their body often times.

As to my issues, frankly raising a child has helped me resolve more of those than Michael or the practices he teaches ever could. Now that’s real alchemy.

Best, Sean

[HCWB]

Hi Again,

I’m sorry Arath’s post was deleted. It really had some fair questions. Anyway, for those intertested in trying something new, the Denmark training is about the price of one of Michael’s workshops; it’s a really great group of caring individuals and a wonderful practice.

As for Michael’s comments, I find them a bit irrational; I’ll leave him alone before the poor guy loses his cool. It is important for people to get the full picture of the history and teachings of the Healing Tao and I would encourage those like Arath to continue to share their views.

Best, Sean

seandenty@hotmail.com

[HCWB]

Hey Snow Lion,

Sounds like you have be deeply touched by the Healing Dao practices. I hope you will accept my appologies if my posts seemed like an attack. This was not my intension; I just wanted to simply share my personal experience.

Here’s what the Admin of Tao bums, Sean, recently wrote me:

“Nice post Sean (good name too ). You are sincere and this seems like an incredible opportunity for people drawn to it. I hope you do not feel that I have slammed your path or your teachers in any way. I respect the perspectives you are bringing here and I doubt I speak for myself when I say you’ve given me an opportunity to reevaluate some of my opinions. Thanks.”

And…

“I want to say though, that this thread and the John Chang Video thread are fascinating and giving me a lot of food for thought. My previous comments may have come off too dismissive or harshly. I do think there is a value in cultivating powers. At the very least I think witnessing/co-creating events that show us without a doubt the reality that we are all just part of a larger pattern of energy must have a powerful effect on one’s consciousness — could turn many more people to the Tao and skyrocket the bhakti of those already on the path.”

Here’s a recent letter I posted. I hope this will clear up any confusion

Dear All,

Thank you for your patience. Some you have already heard of my teacher David Verdesi. He is a student of many masters in China and other parts of Asia as well as an anthropologist and author. Despite the occasional attempts to discredit David in the past decade, he is truly one of the few western seekers, in my opinion, to have formed any meaningful relationship with high level masters in China. I will try and cover the basic idea of what’s being offered.

Let me start by just clearing any doubt that what David is teaching is in some way a cult. David and the people that take his trainings are for the most part quite ordinary, working class, normal people. I’m a school teacher in Oregon and very involved in my community; most people I work with have no idea I study qigong. I’m offering this opportunity for two reasons: one, it took me a long time to find the real thing and I can relate to people like me who just want to find a real master and begin pursuing some manner of authentic training; two, David and his masters want to share want they have learned with the world and genuinely want to help people and I’m happy to help them in that endeavor.

It wasn’t easy for me. I didn’t have someone just drop this in my lap on an internet discussion forum. Actually, my Dad got me into Tai Chi when I was around 21 years old. He had cancer and, because there was no treatment at that time for this particular type, he started doing tai chi and changed his diet among other alternative approaches. Anyway, something clicked for me and I went through a lot of money and time researching, in my own small way, what was out there and taking various workshops when I could afford it. I also got really Buddhism which is still something I still practice. I dabbled in Kriya Yoga and some of the other Indian systems and studied various Daoist qigong methods. Then around 1998 I started training to become a Healing Tao instructor as I’ve written about on the Tao Bums forum; after several negative experiences there and the disappointment of realizing I was practicing ineffective and incomplete methods, I decided it was time to move on.

In 2000 I read Kostas’ book and after a brief courtship went to Athens with my girl friend and then 6 month old son and asked to be accepted as a student. It was around this time that I received information about an ongoing lawsuit against the Healing Tao from an Author named Master Choa Kok Sui; I guess he’s some kind of Pranic Healing guru. Anyway there was a copy of his book and a line by line comparison of one of Mantak Chia’s new books written by Dirk Oellibrandt. It was page after page of word for word plagiarism. At this point I wasn’t surprised, but I did some further research and turned up other, similar lawsuits.

For about a month after word, I received letters from Mantak Chia’s people asking instructors not to panic and saying that the Dao belongs to everyone and a bunch of explanations that, quite frankly didn’t excuse the obvious dishonesty taking place. Anyway, the whole thing was disgusting and totally deleted whatever little respect for the Healing Dao I had left at that point. Eventually the whole thing was covered up the Pranic Healing people were paid some kind of settlement or something to that effect. Ironically the book went on to be published with the plagiarism reworded. Of course, people just eat it up and think they’re gifted “cosmic healers” after a few months of training. Anyway I could write a book on all the crap that people buy into out there and It’s not my intention to make the focus of this letter about the Healing Tao, but it just really burns me up that I spent two years teaching people these methods and giving them hope and having to turn around and say sorry, it’s all pretty useless.

Moving on, I studied with one of Kostas’ students for about two years, completing the first part of the level one training and beginning the second part. I thought I had finally found “it,” but two years later that was over and John Chang wasn’t taking students or teaching anymore. It was another disappointment; and not just for me, but a lot of people who had invested many years of their lives and a lot of money too. David was also a student of John Chang, among others, at this time and is still good friends with him. And it was at this time that Andreas, an older student of John Chang, asked David to offer his training to former Mo Pai who, finding themselves without a practice, needed something to fill the void. I guess David didn’t think much of the idea at the time because he already has more students then he truly wants on some levels. In any case, Andreas was persistent because he knew David knew other masters like John Chang.

Every year during the beginning of the New Year, John Chang calls on the ancestors for guidance. Students generally try to be there if they can as it’s generally an auspicious time. If you’ve never read the book, when Sherfu Chang calls his master, his master appears fully manifested in physical form accompanied by thunder and lightning and a tremendous wind. On several occasions these immortal masters recognized David for whatever reason, saying that he knew a great deal more than he should for a “western barbarian.” The Chinese present during these particular visits were surprised to learn David’s connections and knowledge are far more considerable than he lets on. Sherfu Chang was surprised too.

Then about a year and a half ago, David was invited to a private forum started by Andreas. He wrote some amazing articles in his “Italianized” English that basically blew me away. I hope he writes a book about his life so people can read this stuff because he’s led an amazing life; he says he’s waiting till he achieves yin yang gong (level 5) before he writes his story. Anyway, I had a lot of questions, very much like the questions I’m seeing in reaction to my posts. As hard as it is to paint a picture of what he knows via the internet, David managed to impress many of us with his heart and knowledge. Eventually he offered to train those who were interested.

David shared a lot with us and made some important points. He said that John Chang could sense the presence of at least 10 level 64 masters of the Lei Shan Dao in China and many more at or around his level, not to mention all the others below his level. None of these are MoPai, which is just one line of the Lei Shan Dao. Just as a reference, level 64 represents full enlightenment and a great deal of power in the Lei Shan Dao. Supposedly, at level 64, a master can will enlightenment on others and can extend his own life at will.

David told us that there are many methods more effective than Mo Pai in the line of the Lei Shan Dao. Especially, for women who have given birth; in Mo Pai the practice isn’t possible for women who have had a baby. Some of these methods have produced dozens of masters like John Chang in the past decade, where Mo Pai has produced only one, John Chang himself. This is mainly because, of the 12 or so techniques that are used to achieve level 4/5, Mo Pai only use four and John Chang only helps a student with his energy when they have reached level three, a feat almost impossible without the masters help and empowerment. David feels that Sherfu Chang never truly intended to teach but to a few close students and from the information I’ve gathered, I tend to concur.

He also shared some amazing stories about the history and origin of these teachings and how that history has played out over the last several hundred years in China, Tibet and India. David has traveled extensively in Tibet and India in addition to his travels in China looking for masters and researching the various traditions there. John Chang has done the same, even leaving his body to search out remote mountain retreats. By the way, the idea that Michael Winn “tracked” some of David’s teachers in the “astral” is a little silly in my opinion. Sherfu Chang said he found only three masters in the Himalayas, all in remote caves practicing alone. They both found nothing like the living tradition of the Lei Shan Dao in China.

David has many high connections with Tibetan masters and even studied with the tutor of Dilgo Kyetse’s tulku, who was one of the Dali Lama’s root gurus. During this time he personally interviewed a veritable who’s who of masters and lamas in Tibet, India, Nepal, and Bhutan and all said that the last remnants of these practices were lost 150 years ago.

What follows is a snippet of a much longer article written by David on a private forum:
“Always the Magus [John Chang] told, and showed proof of an otherwise lost truth; the real wheels of dharma, the flaming chakras of Vishnu, that once upon a time used to crown a new Buddha, are long lost from India and Tibet; altogether three sacred objects.” David is talking about objects of unimaginable power. “[According to Sherfu Chang,] until [the chakras are] reunited, real vajra power will not be born in Tibet anymore (and Tibet cannot be freed, he said, no-comment on political issues here). Nowadays the crowning of a new high lama is done by presenting a symbolic wheel of dharma, not the real one.”

“Where are they? In Indonesia, in China, not in Tibet or in India; and, the story goes, they were lost along with the vajrayana power… Truth or tale? I do not know, but Sherfu can prove his part at least.”

David actually saw one of these Chakras. It belongs to a Lei Shan Dao Master who is about level 20. I guess this master said he needs to be at full power before he can even hold it. According to this master, the Dali Lama requested to have this Chakra back (I can’t imagine that conversation). I guess the answer was no.

During his search in Tibet, David was led by a very unusual set of circumstances to study with a master of the Miao Tong or Enlightenment line of the Dao in Korea. This master, so we’re told, was the student of a living Buddha. When David was in Korea he met this Buddha and saw many well known masters there who were in residence and had come to study with him. These included the Dali Lama and other high lamas from Tibet, who were all bowing down to and paying respect, etc…

One day this Buddha gives a teaching called the shout of awakening. He takes his staff and pounds it on the stone floor of the mountain monastery with preternatural power. I’m told it sounded like thunder. Anyway, then the Buddha gives this un-human shout that David describes as a very loud alarm clock like sound. He went on to say that the shout was like hearing an alarm, but not being able to “wake up” and turn it off. As I understand it, if you are ready and you’ve gone through the requisite training, you can spontaneously awaken from the dream when the Buddha gives the shout of Awakening.

After the teaching was over, David walked away behind his master (I guess in this tradition the student always follows behind the master three paces). As they were walking, David indicated that he would like to ask a question, so the master stops and turns to David, “Master, it really is like trying to wake up from a deep sleep!” The master replies, “Oh David, you hear sound of awakening and you still sleep; this is very bad.” After which he turns around and keeps walking. Suddenly the Master stops and turns around to David, “It’s okay, Dali Lama still not awake also.”

There are dozens of stories like this; each one more incredible than the next. David also shared many unknown, and lesser known details of the history and development of modern Daoism. I’d like to share a few points that I found particularly useful:

There are, in China, 6 major lines of Taoism; in no particular order, they are:
Lei Shan Dao: the thunder and lightning path.
Yang Shen Dao: developing the immortal fetus.
Tong Ling: Religious Dao; prayer, incantation, use of symbols; devotional in nature.
Miao Tong Dao: Enlightenment Dao founded by Lao Tzu; most illusive path; no method path.
Jin Dan: Alchemical path.
Shamanic Tao: the study of nature.

All of these paths have different methods designed to achieve goals that, while they differ in many ways, all lead to liberation and similar abilities.

While it’s true that only the Lei Shan Dao produces this trade mark “electricity.” The other Lines of the Dao have there own variety of abilities and achievements. David told us of a meeting between 4 or 5 masters, each from a different line. Each was asked to make the same glass bottle rise with their respective powers. The Lei Shan Dao Master used his qi; the Miao Tong wished it with his mind; the Tong Ling called a spirit to lift it, etc… From the point of view of the outside observer, the bottle simply levitated the same way for each master, but, in reality, they each used a different energy. David told us this story to illustrate his assertion that one who claims to be enlightened should also be able to demonstrate it and that Masters who talk of enlightenment, but fail to demonstrate at least some ability beyond just talk should give us, as seekers, pause. “Superpowers” are simply a natural outcome of correct practice and, as such, they represent a much more profound internal transformation. As many of you have rightly stated, these powers are not the goal. They are however very specific indications of the level of internal development of “the body-mind” of a given individual. For example, the demonstration where I witnessed water being transformed into sweet necture by Sherfu J is indicative of the fact that Sherfu J has transformed his own body-mind in a profound way. The evidence of this is the healing power of this liquid, which makes those who drink it incredibly flexable. David told me that he could do the spilts after drinking a bottle of this altered water; I guess he used to be pretty tense and inflexable.

Of all of these paths, the Lei Shan Dao is the most realistic for the western mind and life style. The other five paths require tremendous commitments of time and energy and cannot be accomplished while living a normal life in society. For example the Yang Shen Dao, perhaps one of the more written about practices requires a life style of constant meditation for decades to master. I’m told Wang Li Ping, who is a master of the Yang Shen Dao as well as the other five lines, won’t even consider a student unless they can sit in a meditative state, in full lotus for at least four hours with no discomfort.

As a side note, the reason Wang Li Ping retreated from the public eye is very sad. It’s seems some westerners, convinced he is a fake, urged some of the more public Daoist teachers to denounce him. Ironically, the so called masters who were critical of Sherfu Wang are practitioners of little or no achievement, who, initially supported by the government as a kind of cultural renewal for tourists, really have done the world a disservice. In turn Sherfu Wang, not wanting to create a show and quite content to be out of the public eye, said, “Okay, you win” and retired from public teaching. Of course he continued his work privately and continues extend his influence and powers to help his community in incredible ways.
To be successful in all the paths, one also requires a teacher who has accomplished the requisite training and is qualified to teach in that line. For example, in the Lei Shan Dao, a teacher would need to be well above the so called level four and five as written about by Kostas in his book the Magus of Java. He would need to be able to use his energy to check the student’s progress and correct imbalances; also he would give empowerments to the student via energy transfer. A master of the enlightenment path would have to be fully awakened in order to be able to guide the student; a Tong Ling would be able to confer with high level spirits and command them to his will, etc…

When we first met David he told us about his first meeting with a real master who happens to belong to the line of Jin Dan or Alchemical Daoism. This master and his students are many hundreds of years old, some even older, and live in remote regions in China. They come and go from different worlds only dreamt of by mortals. They were the ones who blessed David with the ability to sense the location and energy of other masters. As a side note, this is how David met John Chang; he had a vision of Sherfu Chang and where he was living at the time. When they met for the first time, John Chang looked at David and said he could see that he had been drawn there by a vision. Anyway, David told us the story of this encounter with the Jin Dan masters and showed us two pieces of mercury that were originally liquid, but had been touched or blessed by the masters qi; one was consistency of clay and had been touched with yang qi and the other fully hardened in the shape of a perfect half sphere was touched with yin. David passed the one with yang qi around for us to feel; because I have developed some qi in my practice with Mo Pai, I felt a tiny electric tic when I touched the yang infused mercury. The point is this, when the master blesses you, your practice, just like the mercury David showed us, instantly progresses in a way that it never could without the blessing of an achieved master. A master can make your Dan tien grow much faster than it normally would.

Today we have come to believe that a blessing from a holy person is just a symbolic act with no power or energy behind it. Sadly, this is the case most of the time. But, when a real master touches you with his qi, Dan, the real elixir of alchemy, is created.

If you have an opportunity to study with David, he teaches the principles behind the cultivation of Dan, or cinnabar as it’s called in ancient Daoist texts, in depth. I have heard from several sources I trust that John Chang himself confirmed that David’s teaching methods and the masters he studies with and knows are authentic and high level. And, of course my own personal story with the masters was validation of the reality of these things for me in a very real way.

David currently lives in Thailand and will be moving soon to live in China near his master. In August a gathering of over 300 masters and practitioners from eight sacred mountains that included Wutang Shan, Tian Shan, Emei Shan, Huang Shan, Song Shan, Kunlun Shan, Qing Cheng Shan and Hua Shan took place as David and his wife were made family or Tu Di disciples of one of the Masters there whom I have described in my posts on Taobums and Shaolin Wahnam (Sherfu J). David’s teacher, master J, is a Yin Yang Gong master of the Lei Shan Dao or Thunder and Lightening path. I personally witnessed this amazing event and the amazing feats of the masters who attended.
Interestingly, one of the members here posted a video of one of David’s masters. This particular master is well known in government circles and a good friend of the master David is currently training with. David does introduce students to this master:

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JYGqVA9xc4

Yesterday I received an exciting letter from David about an opportunity to meet a master and train with David in Asia. I decided to open this opportunity up to a larger audience in the various forums I have posted on because I feel it represents an important step for our community of seekers here in the States. Take your time to consider what’s being offered; this is an opportunity to meet a high level master and train with David for two to three weeks in the first steps of the foundation practice; the methods taught are given as a full transmission with the blessing of the masters who have passed them on to David. In addition, it looks like the master may spend some time personally overseeing the training and helping students with his energy. It looks like the master attending will be either Sherfu J or L as I have described in my earlier posts on this thread, but that will be decided later. It’s my deep hope that this offer is recognized for what it is; I can confidently say that this is the first time an offer like this has been presented in this way and that those who attend will have their lives altered in a profound way.

Whether or not the training becomes a reality will depend largely on the level of interest generated. David would like to hold the training in late May or early June 2007. Those who attend will need to commit at least two to three weeks to train and spend time with the master. The training I attended with David was condensed in the sense that David taught us a more complete version of the practice, usually taught over a two year period. This will probably be the case for this training as well. There is also a beginning training this summer in Denmark. The training in Denmark will be the standard first year training from what I understand and will be given by one of David’s other students as far as I know; David will be training students there too, so he may oversee the beginning training- I not sure about the details of this yet.

The tuition for the training in Asia is 5,000 Euros, not including travel expenses; however, if we have a large group the cost could potentially be considerably reduced. I know many of you are working class like me and this represents a substantial financial investment. Again, consider what’s being offered carefully and take your time to come to a decision. David has spent, literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in his years of research and study to be able to bring these opportunities into the light. What’s being offered is five to ten times less than what many of these masters charge to meet non-introduced students; and even then there is no guarantee you would receive the level of training offered by David. Some students wait years after meeting the master to receive just the first step; this was my experience with Mo Pai.

In the past David has allowed some students with legitimate financial circumstances to pay over time. I can’t speak for this training, but that may be an option for some of you. The cost for this type of training tends to weed out those who are less serious; just like any professional athletic trainer or consultant in any field for that matter, David teaches to those who are truly invested in the practice as a life long pursuit. Those that are, will see that this offer is a generous one and that opportunities like his are rare.

For those that are interested, but cannot afford the training in Asia, Denmark is still an option, but space it limited as David likes to keep the groups there relatively small and intimate. The prices for this have not been set yet, but I will pass on more details as I become aware of them.

I’m sure some of you will have questions, so feel free to ask. If you personally know people who would be interested, you are welcome to pass this information on to them.

Here is some basic information:

Foundation Training takes about 1.5 to 2 years of the 3 years total training. Ji Shen Ji Jubei, meaning to own and master yourself completely, is the process of creating the dan tien and gets you ready for the more advanced work of neikung. David usually requires you to go through this Foundation Training before he will take you to see a Master, but there are exceptions to this; the trip to Asia next spring will likely not be offered again. That’s partly why I wanted to open up the opportunity. It’s good to meet a master and experience some of these things first hand.

Here’s a quick run down of what’s being offered in terms of training for those who would like to explore for themselves.

A few of the requirements:

1. 4 months of celibacy when you begin the foundation training. Celibacy here means no sex of any kind.

2. Training is fairly expensive. It has to be important and something you really want to make an investment in.

3. Meditation for about an hour and 30 minutes twice a day. Plus a qigong form that was developed in the Lei Shan Dao Tradition for about an hour at least 3 times a week.

Since several of you have asked the same questions, I put together a few answers to try and address them all rather than responding to each of you personally:

What is the outcome of the three year training? After the first 1.5 to 2 years, you will have created your dan tien and, if you have practiced well, you will be able to still the mind totally and rest in the light of the ling qi or divine aspect of the qi. This is a critical step; with out it, nei gong cannot commence.

As a side note, one of the side effects of this stage of the practice is total control over your sexual organs and energy. This is the real sexual alchemy of the Dao; unlike the ill designed methods of the Healing Tao, these abilities occur naturally as a bi product of correct training and no woman can make you ejaculate if you don’t want her to. And for women, at some point in the practice, the monthly cycle ceases and they develop similar abilities to control their sex organs. Men who undergo this training can literally drink a glass of water with their penis and, despite what other so called experts have written on the subject, this is the true test of mastery for this relatively minor achievement.

Ironically, in terms of cultivation, it makes no difference whether you ejaculate or not; sex of any kind wastes the fragile jing. In fact, it’s better for you to just ejaculate if you are not training. All this saving your self that Mantak Chia is preaching is basically fruitless. John Chang has normal sex with his wife twice a week and has for the last 40 years and he’s one of the highest level masters on the planet.

At the end of this training, students are tested and must be able to pull an object (telekinesis) toward them using their qi. John Chang was amazed that David could do this without the help that he normally gives with his qi. By the way, completing the foundation practice allows you to progress in nei gong at a considerably quicker pace than those who have no prior training, saving years in the practice and preventing many possible health issues.

David does teach neigong after students have completed the foundation training. David knows the practice up to level three as far as I know and, if all goes well, he will achieve yin yang gong in the next two to three years and begin teaching it to his students. Several of his students have completed level two. When these students went to train with Sherfu L in Bangkok, Sherfu showed them how to levitate about an inch off the ground. David was able to levitate also. I guess Sherfu has you sit on news paper and when you start lifting off, he pulls it out from under you without tearing it.

A few of David’s students were recently accepted by Sherfu L and are now training with him. As David explained it, this has to be your Tian Ming or destiny. When the student is ready the master can see it.

Several of the masters David knows are open to teaching westerners. There are opportunities to study with these masters and the foundation training is common to several different major lines of the Dao, so there’s no real concern of having to commit to just the Lei Shan Dao. You might for example be more drawn to the Yang Shen Dao or practice dual cultivation. I’m told Wang Li Ping is a master in all of the major Dao and David told me he is going to bring his older students to meet Sherfu Wang as early as this year. At the highest levels, the distinction between lines begins to overlap; the highest level masters are often skilled in one or more of the lines from what I’m told.

Of course there are no guarantees in life. Like any endeavor, you have to do the work and be successful in your practice to move forward. But, David is very optimistic about the future and pleased that there is some interest in these things from you all.

David does bring scientific organizations or people just looking for healing or who really dream to witness a demonstration directly to meet some of these masters who are open to such things. Generally the fee for this type of service is quite high however and I sense that most of you are interested in the training and want to pursue that line if anything. If you want to train with David, just email me and let me know. Please write something that would convey your sincerity and perhaps a few words about yourself so I can get a picture of who you are. Just be yourself.

If you do know anyone who would like to meet a master directly without bothering with the training or you yourself have this desire, please contact me and I can arrange this for you. You would need to perhaps tell me a little about yourself and we would need to discuss the matter over the phone at the very least before you would meet with David. This would include demonstrations and treatments and video taping and recording of the demonstrations. Of course all this would be negotiated with David.

I hope this answers some of your questions. If you’re interested you can join a private forum that I’m putting together for David; it will be ready for new members in a few weeks. On it he has written about a dozen short articles with some amazing information in them. You can also interact with his students and ask questions about the training and so forth. There is a yearly fee to join. This is not a requirement in anyway and if you just want to train, but have more questions you can ask me, within reason. If you want, I can also put you in touch with David, but you really have to write me a letter that shows me some heart and gives me a sense of who you are before I do that.

Warm regards and God bless, Sean Denty seandenty@hotmail.com

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