[pema]

Thanks for the input Michael. Perhaps from my previous training I had found a very strong fire within the moon, and in my psyche had oriented the moon as being the partially separated feminine and subconscious of the Earth. Delving into the depths of this yin and subconscious I was finding the fire of transformation able to balance the yin of the sun. I tried a mix where I absorbed the moon back into the Earth as to bring the subconscious into present consciousness (into this moment or body instead of being dissociated into the sub levels or space.) A large part of my problem is likely how I have related to the moon as being the deeper feminine aspect of the Earth.

When I go into the depths inside of the moon, I do find a very strong yang presence. It seems like this should be integrated on some level. Perhaps this is what you are using in the advanced lesser. It just seems like there is a bit of a gap between the lesser and greater. You had mentioned noting a gap between these levels before and that this was part of what motivated you to receive the advanced lesser formula. I’ll have to give it a go and see if that makes the bridge. A large part of my practice has been moving between the formulas to develop integration through the planes/levels of the central channel, so I’ve been noticing something not quite clicking there.

I’ll let you know how it progresses.

Brian

[pema]

Patrick,

I see where you are coming from, and it’s interesting how our psyches arrange things. For me, for some reason, I don’t see moon as separate from the Earth. Perhaps it is from a grade school science textbook drawing that I can still remember that posited that the moon came from the Earth as the Earth was rapidly spinning during its molten formation. Funny what sticks with you.

In regards to the sky god stuff. I have come to find a pattern of growth from the personal sexual golden pearl of lesser (which has a lunar aspect,) on to the Earth pearl of greater, then on to Saturn in the greatest. It is a fluid growth or maturation process up the core channel for me. There is not a sense of separation of sky god and Earthly god, but rather an interdependent process. When I practice the formulas, I move up and down between them and find the gaps in resonance or where the energy isn’t moving between the planes. I find that aspect of this system incredibly beautiful.

Of note, Michael had briefly mentioned that Saturn is the merger point between the Earth destiny and the Heavenly destiny. He also mentioned that it is like an immature light body or star that with cultivation could evolve to its full potential. When I heard that something in me clicked. A series of correspondences triggered a realization of how in the Kabalistic system the God Name for Bina (the supernal mother which corresponds with the highest octave of Saturn in their system) is used to activate and bridge the Abyss where the hidden sephiroth of Daath lies at the throat area. There are four ways to cross the abyss in their system, but all of them involve dealing with the question who the little ‘me’ is relative to the whole universe. Enoch walked with God and he was not. It is a resolution of a mirror of the macrocosm and the microcosm where the question of the individual being drops to a paradoxical level. At this point a number of traditions try to create a resonate structure that serves as a bridge point, one that resonates with the microcosm and the macrocosm. It allows for a flow between heaven and Earth.

In the Hindu tantras you find this at the level of the throat with vishuddha chakra which roughly translates as ‘purified’ It is the level of sound with the sixteen petals of the Sanskrit vowels surrounding the seed syllable ham or hum. Here is where the elements are referred to as mahatattvas or the great purified elements that have not fully differentiated into being. They still reflect a heavenly state of sorts. In the buddhist tantras they have the same arrangement and here they create the great stupa of enlightenment which is the mahatattvas arranged in a way the reflects the heavenly order in harmony with the Earthly planes. It is related to what is sometimes called the Vajra body. Curiously, vajra can mean diamond, lightening bolt, indestructible, and probably some other things. It is formed of va, j, ra, which are the seed syllables of water, union, and fire. The indestructible union of water and fire, the realization of which reveals the diamond-like nature of our true nature luminously reflecting the whole. This union often happens with a sudden lightening flash or thundering. Does any of this sound familiar?

Maybe that was interesting to some folks:) I get a little chuckle that it is vajra, not rajva. The vajrayana or buddhist tantric path seems to have some water primary emphasis in its origins as well. It doesn’t always play out like that now, but curious to note.

I’ll see you this summer. I got some nettles and foti today to help rejuvenate my worn down kidney beans. Tomorrow night a few of us are going out to practice on a crystal mountain for the lunar eclipse.

Still got that necklace from our men’s ceremony on my little altar:)

Brian

[pema]

Good to hear from you Patrick!

The tonal aspect is very helpful. I drove my kidneys too hard over the past few years of residency and as I have been tuning in lately, I have noticed that my weakened kidney energy has resulted in some tinnitus. I am on a home practice retreat this week, and am doing some rebuilding/nourishing. Deep listening will become easier as my kidneys relax a bit and feel supported by the rest of the system.

I have not done much of the sun gazing because I have been working most daylight hours. My schedule is shifting now that I am finishing residency in 4 months, so I look forward to more real-time communion with the natural world!

In regards to your advice above, you seem to be connecting with Earth as the past and the sun as the future. I can see how that would work. If you have the time, try it with the moon instead of the Earth below. It has a slightly different flavor and may be just a way of cooking the Saturian issues differently.

One way that has opened it for me has been to feel the watery softening with realizing the compassion at the core of the solar being balanced by the radiant transformative love of the Great Goddess as the higher aspect of the Lunar being (the High Priestess.) Perhaps due to my Tibetan and Kabalistic training, my psyche keeps wanting to arrange it this way. It will be interesting to see if Michael has anything to chime in about why he changed the formula, and what the effects were with the previous arrangement.

When will we see you again?

Brian

[pema]

Looking forward to sun-moon this summer. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds on a beautiful sacred property that was designed according to Vastu. If I am not mistaken, this place was designed according to Vedic proportions and orientations. It will be like bringing the water primary practices to a land organized by fire primary methods. It will be interesting to see if there is an alchemical process that develops simply be being in that space. Transitions can be difficult, but it seems this space will be better one. The space was created with spiritual practice in mind and that area of NC is BEAUTIFUL (though I am biased.)

Cheers,

Brian

[pema]

Hey Michael,

I was looking at the new retreat schedule,and it looks like a number of retreats will be starting on Fridays. Is this Friday night or Friday morning? The previous retreats started on the evening of the first day if I remember correctly.

Thanks,

Brian

[pema]

I too have been having experiences with the Earth grid mapping out and resonating with my body as I have gone deeper into substance and have been working with the dark mother. I wonder if there is something collective going on.

Pema

[pema]

I agree with you both that integration is the essential point. The most useful part of my post is probably the segment about having ‘gaps’ in the system. I have seen in myself and others unfortunate results of such ‘dead zones of awareness and resonance’ manifesting in behavior and health. Listening to the nature of my blind spots (at the least the blind spots that I have awareness of!), it has a lot to do with resolving the fundamental polarity on a personal and lineage level. The tension I feel currently may be related to the Kan and Li process trying to move to the next level which works well on lineage issues. I currently have only studied to the level of lesser Kan and Li, and from what I have been told, the next two formulas target my issues more precisely. Fortunately, it is an organic process that unfolds on its own with persistent, sincere effort and patience.

The Western approach, instead of growing it from the bottom up (earth-centered), tends to bring it down to earth from the top down (space-centered). So being, it feels like there is transformative process resonating its way to center from above and below. This is my personal ride, and like you said, we will all unfold our unique process. Whatever I learn from this, I upload to the collective as we all develop together interdependently.

Alexander, I have appreciated your input to prior posts and I feel that your comment has insight. One of the problems of the Western schools is approaching from the top-down (I hope that you all know what I mean by this) and being mostly a fire primary path, it can get caught in the mental or in an obsession with ‘will.’ It can have problems engaging and harmonizing the emotions which can lead to a ‘gap’ as mentioned above which leads to power plays on the physical and emotional levels. Unfortunately, we see this in our current world situation. The Western paths that are able to bridge this gap into the feeling realms through sincere compassion and an understanding of the great interdependent process can be successful. Each path has its merits, and it’s useful to know the strengths and weaknesses of whichever path or skillful means one chooses to employ. The water primary paths have their strengths and weaknesses as well.

I feel that just as we are moving from a patriarchal period with the resurgence of the feminine, we will hopefully find a balance of the polarity rather than seeking a return of the matriarchy (seen a lot of interesting posts about Hilary lately.) Is this Kan and Li on the global level…

Thanks,

Pema

[pema]

I agree with you both that integration is the essential point. The most useful part of my post is probably the segment about having ‘gaps’ in the system. I have seen in myself and others unfortunate results of such ‘dead zones of awareness and resonance’ manifesting in behavior and health. Listening to the nature of my blind spots (at the least the blind spots that I have awareness of!), it has a lot to do with resolving the fundamental polarity on a personal and lineage level. The tension I feel currently may be related to the Kan and Li process trying to move to the next level which works well on lineage issues. I currently have only studied to the level of lesser Kan and Li, and from what I have been told, the next two formulas target my issues more precisely. Fortunately, it is an organic process that unfolds on its own with persistent, sincere effor unique process. Whatever I learn from this, I upload to the collective as we all develop together interdependently.

Alexander, I have appreciated your input to prior posts and I feel that your comment has insight. One of the problems of the Western schools is approaching from the top-down (I hope that you all know what I mean by this) and being mostly a fire primary path, it can get caught in the mental or in an obsession with ‘will.’ It can have problems engaging and harmonizing the emotions which can lead to a ‘gap’ as mentioned above which leads to power plays on the physical and emotional levels. Unfortunately, we see this in our current world situation. The Western paths that are able to bridge this gap into the feeling realms through sincere compassion and an understanding of the great interdependent process can be successful. Each path has its merits, and it’s useful to know the strengths and weaknesses of whichever path or skillful means one chooses to employ. The water primary paths have their strengths and weaknesses as well.

I feel that just as we are moving from a patriarchal period with the resurgence of the feminine, we will hopefully find a balance of the polarity rather than seeking a return of the matriarchy (seen a lot of interesting posts about Hilary lately.) Is this Kan and Li on the global level…

Thanks,

Pema

[pema]

Hey all,

I’ve been away for awhile, but have checked out the recent postings. I wanted to start a small thread to check out your experiences and insights on arranging a ‘universal energy body.’ For a number of years I struggled a bit working between Western Magickal, Hindu, Tibetan, and Taoist practices that I felt all had worth, and probably had some common roots. For me they offered a complementary set of practices that balanced me and helped me full both destinies. Still, the Taoist seemed to approach things from a bottom up perspective (earth-centered) and the Western lineages worked more from a top down approach (space-centered) This relates to the water vs fire paths that you often hear Michael speak or post about. The given approach (from the top or from the bottom) influences the language used in the path, the likely pitfalls, the likely biases, and the preliminary arrangement of the energy body before stabilizing into what each tradition refers to as the ‘immortal body, light body, diamond body, etc.’

So, I’ve been sitting with a cauldron full of seemingly contradictory practices and faithfully stirring the brew while looking for a middle way that fits my needs. In the past couple of years something has begun to precipitate that seems fundamental, and surprisingly it is quite harmonic.

I’ve been seeing a lot of posts recently on different email lists about the ‘diamond body.’ For awhile I have known that to truly accomplish this great work one would need to go ‘As deep as you go high, and as inward as you go outward’ to eventually find the same ‘essence’ in both locales. The question of what happens in between, becomes a matter of how you arrange yourself to be in harmony or resonance with the ‘whole’ all the way through your being down to the light that pulses out from the two strands of your DNA. It seems that there are harmonic relationships based on the Fibonacci series, Phi, and Pi which serve as the blueprint of the energy body, and that can then mirror or resonate with the structure of the inner and outer universe. Such an energetic structure stands in the middle resonating in both directions until there is a continuum between ‘heaven and earth.’ This is speaking in a linear metaphor, when in actuality it is likely more holographic.

So with that verbose prelude, I ask, ‘Has anyone noticed how the basic energy body of the Taoist system mirrors a harmonic musical system based on the Fibonacci series and Phi?’

1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34, etc

It started to click for me once I got the eight vessels going in conjunction with the Kan and Li practice. I found the hidden 9th, then I noticed the 12 meridians with the hidden 13th. The vesica pisces as taught by Michael for helping the Kan and Li began to connect as the 3 expanding out to the five elements and then on to the 8 (with hidden 9th).

For those that don’t have much experience with the Western alchemical tradition, they often use geometric forms or sacred platonic solids as harmonic resonators with elemental forces or as containers for such energies. In their tradition the dodecahedron is related to ‘spirit or ether,’ the icosahedron is related to water, and the icosa-dodecahedron is a nested form that is the shape of the earth grid, or the energy body of the earth.

Perhaps due to what I have practiced before, the Taoist energy body with its stable ‘gyroscope’ of the microcosmic orbit, belt channel, central channel, and out ward expression of the two inner side channels to create a L/R loop, and its ability to embody the ratios of 3, 5, 8 (9), 13 (12 +1) has started resonating with the platonic solids within and around me as a container- it is somewhat fractal, holographic, and recursive.

I am sitting with it and watching it link up as I do more practice, but it has the sensation of connecting levels of my being and tuning my little hologram of reality to the larger or deeper picture.

One of the important things that I have noticed in cultivation is the downfalls that occur when one has ‘gaps’ in the system. When I speak of gaps I mean levels that aren’t integrated in the continuity of the system. This usually leads to strange compensations, seeking the energy of the missing level outside of oneself, demonizing that level, control trips of trying to banish or dominate that energy outside of oneself, etc. That being said, I have noticed a gap in this process in myself, and was offering this out to see what you all might have to say. It will likely resolve itself with continued practice and patience, but I thought this would spark some interesting discussion.

The gap: the number ten is often attributed to the ten heavenly stems and is seen as the yin/yang aspect of the five phases. There is an energy building in me that appears to be trying to resonate with the icosa-dodecahedron of the earth grid. This shape is the union of an icosahedron (platonic solid for the element of water) and the dodecahedron (platonic solid for ether). It has 30 vertices, 32 faces, and 60 edges. Twelve of the faces are pentagons, 20 are triangles, six decagons create the structure through interlocking rings. Does anyone know how this structure (which is the supposed structure of the earth grid) resonates with the energy body of the Taoist system? I would guess that it would, given that the Taoist system is so earth-centered. I can feel 12 pentagrams with the hidden 13th (man) as center. The rest hasn’t connected yet. I am not sure how the heavenly energies are incorporated (ie. is it a double of the ten heavenly stems as triangles ( 20 + center for 21)or of the six decagons that create the structure?)

Possibly this is simply mental masturbation, but it does feel like a fundamental resonance is establishing itself. I am interested to see what you all have to say.

Sincerely tuning the radio to broadband,

Pema

[pema]

Nei dan,

This quote from Michael summarizes my basic point:

The tools a magician use employ exactly the same principles, only they are directed at a particular end. If the end is selfish (in the negative sense) and harms others, the effects are mirrored back to the magician – but others meanwhile may have suffered.

I am relatively young on the path, but I have seen tools employed from a scewed intention bounce back ferociously. The basic cultivation practices may seen boring or less flashy than some of the ‘power tools’ or high invocations, but they lay an excellent foundation that is necessary. Continuity of daily practice is useful. In my opinion its worth the effort of harmonizing and integrating yourself at a basic level and gradually increasing your scope of activity. You can go to Barnes and Noble and get a ‘how to book’ that teaches some ‘inner order’ stuff that is pretty heavy, but those unintegrated parts may be unknowingly steering the show (which can lead to some wonky effects). You can also invoke more energy than you can integrate. This can lead to physical health problems (seen it a lot) or to mental splits. It can be a high stakes game. I agree with the other two, that focusing on cultivation is a good way: the other stuff WILL open in time. For a smoother ride, don’t generate more than you can integrate. Some folks like the roller coaster ride, but I think its a good idea to know what your getting into. Glad your so interested in the path 🙂

Pema

[pema]

Nei dan,

Sorry the above post didn’t come through completely for some reason. The part that made it got the main point across though. The second part just mentioned being aware of using techniques to ‘bind spirits’ or subjugate them, and how that can backfire in REALLY bad ways. Also be aware of rituals in which you may be bargaining or making some unspoken contract/covenant with an entity. This can be slippery territory and there are some seemingly benign or even benevolent entities that might lack the wisdom or power they claim to have, or can be parasitic in nature. Especially beware of the ones that set you up as something ‘special,’ pump your ego, or offer you other types of specialness which are really just hooks at the insecurites hidden in our dark sides.

I prefer to work with enlightened beings or ones that are at least oath bound for benefiting all beings. I approach them as an ally in a greater work, and don’t push the agendas of my insecurities. I do not do this work often, and instead focus on cultivation. As a serious warning from someone that his seen this type of work go wrong: use your discernment, cultivate yourself, develop your ground, know what you are getting into or working with, and have a clear positive intention. There are a number of books in popular press that have rituals which unknowingly can get you into hot water. My mentors have told me about rough results of some folks that tried them ‘just to see what would happen.’ One fella wound up with a car flying off the interstate into his meditation room. It was from a misfired Enochian invocation performed in a pompous way.

Good luck on the path, and keep listening to your innards for what benefits your development and service. I wish you the best,

Pema

[pema]

Nei dan,

I can’t speak to the Taoist perspective on this, but I suspect it is similar to the following Western perspective.

In the Western Magickal tradition, there comes a point where one takes the oath of obligation. It’s somewhat like a very serious bodhisatta vow, in which you commit to completing the ‘Great Work’ and acting ONLY for the benefit of beings. Usually the vow entails phrases like ‘should I transgress this oath should all of my magickal weapons turn against me, etc.’ It’s a strong statement and brings up a good point. There are some very powerful tools out there. In a healthy tradition, someone guiding you didn’t give you the powertools until you had proved yourself and committed to positive action. Unfortunately there is a tendency for tradtions to degrade and for folks to begin contemplating what they call ‘grey magic’ or even outright ‘black magic.’ The grey magic folk claim that you can do things to benefit yourself if it doesn’t harm or negatively affect other beings (thus not white i.e. for the benefit of all, and not black i.e. harming others.)

Nice try… but from my limited experience all actions affect everything and when you start using strong magickal techniques, they REALLY start affecting everything. Thus, to use Western terms, actions are either in service to all or in service of ‘demonic self’ (one acting selfishly out of ignorance.) In defining magick, you could describe it as ANY act of will, which then leads to the statement “May all of my actions be to benefit all beings.’ Then one goes about deepening wisdom to understand what is actually ‘real’, who is ‘willing’ and what is truly beneficial to all beings, and how to go about doing that. This is what the Western folks call the Great Work or the process of enlightenment: awakening completely and being of service through broader means. That being said, there are loads of instances in the Western tradition (and maybe most traditions) of people perverting the techniques meant to enlighten and serve all into methods for strengthening and serving a ‘demonic self.’ In the end though, the stronger the magickal methods that the black magicians use it seems the stronger the blow back is and eventually they get the message through suffering. It can take awhile and can cause trouble for all involved. I’ve seen it a few times.

So, I suspect that in the many different strains of Taoism, there are some that are more alchemical and oriented to awakening and service, and there are some that have denegrated into other motives. As you look through the different strains of Taoism, listen to your own inner discernment for what resonates as true and right for you. You don’t have to take ALL of Taoism, all of the different schools as truth. If your innards are telling you that black sorcery isn’t for you, that’s a good thing. Keep cultivating your true inner earth.

Hope that helps,

Pema

[pema]

Nei dan,

I can’t speak to the Taoist perspective on this, but I suspect it is similar to the following Western perspective.

In the Western Magickal tradition, there comes a point where one takes the oath of obligation. It’s somewhat like a very serious bodhisatta vow, in which you commit to completing the ‘Great Work’ and acting ONLY for the benefit of beings. Usually the vow entails phrases like ‘should I transgress this oath should all of my magickal weapons turn against me, etc.’ It’s a strong statement and brings up a good point. There are some very powerful tools out there. In a healthy tradition, someone guiding you didn’t give you the powertools until you had proved yourself and committed to positive action. Unfortunately there is a tendency for tradtions to degrade and for folks to begin conteything and when you start using strong magickal techniques, they REALLY start affecting everything. Thus, to use Western terms, actions are either in service to all or in service of ‘demonic self’ (one acting selfishly out of ignorance.) In defining magick, you could describe it as ANY act of will, which then leads to the statement “May all of my actions be to benefit all beings.’ Then one goes about deepening wisdom to understand what is actually ‘real’, who is ‘willing’ and what is truly beneficial to all beings, and how to go about doing that. This is what the Western folks call the Great Work or the process of enlightenment: awakening completely and being of service through broader means. That being said, there are loads of instances in the Western tradition (and maybe most traditions) of people perverting the techniques meant to enlighten and serve all into methods for strengthening and serving a ‘demonic self.’ In the end though, the stronger the magickal methods that the black magicians use it seems the stronger the blow back is and eventually they get the message through suffering. It can take awhile and can cause trouble for all involved. I’ve seen it a few times.

So, I suspect that in the many different strains of Taoism, there are some that are more alchemical and oriented to awakening and service, and there are some that have denegrated into other motives. As you look through the different strains of Taoism, listen to your own inner discernment for what resonates as true and right for you. You don’t have to take ALL of Taoism, all of the different schools as truth. If your innards are telling you that black sorcery isn’t for you, that’s a good thing. Keep cultivating your true inner earth.

Hope that helps,

Pema

[pema]

Thanks for the link Rex. I’ve been away taking my boards for a few days. Also thanks to Trunk for his insight from the Taoist perspective. I have practised mainly in the Nyingma tradition and have been able to work the Taoist practices along side because they so mirror the dzogchen path. The teachers that I have worked with, however, are rather formal in their approach to the Ngondro, and it can take a while to complete the preliminaries with a full life. The visualization centered practices can be somewhat ungrounding and dis-integrating for me when my daily life is rather intellectual at work. I appreciate having you all for resources here.

Pema

[pema]

Fajin,

I have wondered about the relationship between the kan and li practices of Taoism and the tummo practice of the six yogas. I have limited experience with both and am planning on studying the lesser kan and li this summer. I know that others have had some experience with both traditions on this site and I welcome their input on this topic.

In the Indian yogic system they have a practice called candali (also called the inner homa in some cases) which blazes and integrates the elements at the level of manipura chakra. This practice works with the five main prana of the body and dissolves them in the central channel at this junction point. The two main ones that are brought together are Prana vayu and Apana vayu. Prana vayu is upward moving and Apana vayu is naturally downward moving. Their natural movements are reversed and they are fused at the navel chakra. This fusion is said to ignite the inner fire and arose the latent vital energies of kundalini which are then used to purify the nadis and create a clear vessel or astral body. The tibetan tummo works much on the same process with the five vayus, yet they use a different chakra system. They still yoke the five pranas at the navel, however.(If anyone can offer insights on why their chakra system is set the way they have it, I would welcoem the discussion.) I have met practitioners that have attempted the tummo by learning it from books, and have fried themselves. It was as if they burnt up their jing. In some cases it was like they sucked it right out of their bones and now have rheumatoid disorders. I have wondered what has been left out of the books and how the ngondro serves to prepare the student for this practice. I have worked through about 3/5 ths of the ngondro and am curious about other practitioners’ experience that are working both systems. Thanks for asking the initial question, Pema

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